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Belleayre to be part of ORDA?

tjf67

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Belleayre is very special to everyone who skis there. It is its small mountain, uncrowded, family oriented, lots of ungroomed, gladed, better-than-expected snow, smells like skiing kind of vibe that makes it special.

I think ORDA has enough on its plate and Belleayre is going to be nothing but its nuisance.

Did you read ORDA's mission statement? Belleayre does not fit in.

Umm at least it has ski areas in it mission station. What r u nervous about? It has below average lifts, below average snow making and can't draw a crowd.
 

catskills

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Ok I get it. You r speaking selfeshly. I don't see bell in my ski cards so don't u worry.
Just to make sure you don't ever visit Belleayre. Belleayre goes weeks without making snow. The only grooming is to groom all the trails flat with not one mogul on the entire mountain. . Most of the time the place is solid blue ice. You would hate it at Belleayre :wink: The folks that do go to Belleayre seem to keep coming back for some reason.
 

tjf67

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Just to make sure you don't ever visit Belleayre. Belleayre goes weeks without making snow. The only grooming is to groom all the trails flat with not one mogul on the entire mountain. . Most of the time the place is solid blue ice. You would hate it at Belleayre :wink: The folks that do go to Belleayre seem to keep coming back for some reason.



How many skier visits does bell get and how much of those are freebies? I would argue that not as much as they need. If it is a private ski area and the owner wants to run at a loss thats there choice.

Now being a state run place I want it to cover its costs.

people from NJ should pay extra. I dont pay taxes so they can ski cheap.
 

thinnmann

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Just to make sure you don't ever visit Belleayre. Belleayre goes weeks without making snow. The only grooming is to groom all the trails flat with not one mogul on the entire mountain. . Most of the time the place is solid blue ice. You would hate it at Belleayre :wink: The folks that do go to Belleayre seem to keep coming back for some reason.

Much love, Catskills:beer:
 

threecy

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If it is a private ski area and the owner wants to run at a loss thats there choice.

Now being a state run place I want it to cover its costs.

Especially in today's economy, this is huge.

A very small percentage of the population skis. In a time in which there are significant cuts being made to some notable parts of government, it is going to get harder and harder to explain to the average, non-skiing taxpayer why they're being required to subsidize what is considered by many to be the wealthy man's leisurely pursuit.
 

thinnmann

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How many skier visits does bell get and how much of those are freebies? I would argue that not as much as they need. If it is a private ski area and the owner wants to run at a loss thats there choice.

Now being a state run place I want it to cover its costs.

people from NJ should pay extra. I dont pay taxes so they can ski cheap.

Search out the posts in this forum. The costs of Belleayre's operation have been widely discussed. The wash can be sort of summarized by this: Belleayre runs a deficit for the winter months, but makes it up in the off season. Most importantly, it is the biggest economic engine for everything from Kingston through Andes on the NY-28 corridor.

I bring many thousands of NJ dollars up that corridor (and even to Gore and WF) every winter. Without Belleayre, I would be bringing that cash to VT; or worse PA...
 

x10003q

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Now being a state run place I want it to cover its costs.

people from NJ should pay extra. I dont pay taxes so they can ski cheap.

Hilarious commentary from somebody who is from the heart of NYstate supported venues. Maybe when the $18 million white elephant "downtown" convention center in Lake Placid pays for itself and runs a profit we will be able to take your comments about Belleayre seriously. How about all the other LP venues that run at a loss every year? You don't seem to be to concerned about your tax dollars paying for those money losers.
 

tjf67

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Hilarious commentary from somebody who is from the heart of NYstate supported venues. Maybe when the $18 million white elephant "downtown" convention center in Lake Placid pays for itself and runs a profit we will be able to take your comments about Belleayre seriously. How about all the other LP venues that run at a loss every year? You don't seem to be to concerned about your tax dollars paying for those money losers.

It is projected the the convention center will pay for itself in 5 years. In the mean time they are generating enough rev to cover the payments on the debt. Anything else?

Why do you go to Bell?
 

x10003q

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It is projected the the convention center will pay for itself in 5 years. In the mean time they are generating enough rev to cover the payments on the debt. Anything else?

Why do you go to Bell?

Projected? By who? Of course ORDA projected a rosy financial situation. If it was so rosy and profitable how come a private entity did not want to do the Convention Center in LP? The financial complaints about Belleayre are a drop in the bucket compared to an $18 million NYS outlay + ongoing funding by ORDA that has nothing to do with winter sports. If the convention center was never built Lake Placid would still be Lake Placid. The little incremental business from the CC will only benefit private property owners while NYS taxpayers gets stuck holding the bag.

You say they are generating enough revenue to cover the payments on the debt. How about a link? ORDA never breaks out the other money losing venues in the ORDA accounting. I am sure they won't break out the convention center financials either.
 

tjf67

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Projected? By who? Of course ORDA projected a rosy financial situation. If it was so rosy and profitable how come a private entity did not want to do the Convention Center in LP? The financial complaints about Belleayre are a drop in the bucket compared to an $18 million NYS outlay + ongoing funding by ORDA that has nothing to do with winter sports. If the convention center was never built Lake Placid would still be Lake Placid. The little incremental business from the CC will only benefit private property owners while NYS taxpayers gets stuck holding the bag.

You say they are generating enough revenue to cover the payments on the debt. How about a link? ORDA never breaks out the other money losing venues in the ORDA accounting. I am sure they won't break out the convention center financials either.

Its getting way off base. The idea that ORDA can run a ski area more efficient than the DEC is very appealing as a NYS tax payer. You not being a NYS tax payer really don't have a dog in the race. Your are only interested in your family and I can appreciate that but I don't want to subsidize your skiing. Thats it. If ORDA can come in and run the show more efficiently whats the problem?
 

x10003q

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Its getting way off base. The idea that ORDA can run a ski area more efficient than the DEC is very appealing as a NYS tax payer. You not being a NYS tax payer really don't have a dog in the race. Your are only interested in your family and I can appreciate that but I don't want to subsidize your skiing. Thats it. If ORDA can come in and run the show more efficiently whats the problem?

I am a NYS taxpayer. I just do not have the ability to determine where my money gets wasted. ORDA is all about Lake Placid. They take care of Lake Placid. I have been a regular at Gore since the 1980s and have witnessed how they treat Gore. The CC is just one more example. They might be able to do the job running Belleayre, but Belleayre will be short changed.

By the way I might be subsidizing your skiing.
 

tjf67

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I am a NYS taxpayer. I just do not have the ability to determine where my money gets wasted. ORDA is all about Lake Placid. They take care of Lake Placid. I have been a regular at Gore since the 1980s and have witnessed how they treat Gore. The CC is just one more example. They might be able to do the job running Belleayre, but Belleayre will be short changed.

By the way I might be subsidizing your skiing.


I agree that Lake Placid gets a lot more money than gore but to say they have been ignored is silly. That hill has been growing like crazy the last decade. Has any hill in the east expanded there terrain as much as gore's has over the last decade?
 

Harvey

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I think there is potential benefit for Belleayre under ORDA . If NY has spent 70 million on ORDA venues, that speaks to ORDA's lobbying capability. I have no idea how much went to Gore vs Whiteface vs the LP venues, but even if Gore got a smaller share, it's probably more than what the state has invested in Belleayre. DEC's mission is conservation. ORDA's mission is development.

Not totally sure who is really on what side here. I like Belleayre. I want it to succeed. I want to be self-sufficient (operating budgets vs revenue), so that it's less likely to get the ax. I also don't want to see the state operating Bell at a loss* while distributing large quantities of discounted tickets.

IMO cuts in everything are likely. Belleayre posted on their site this past week: "We are proud to announce Belleayre will be opening for the 2011-2012 Skiing and Riding Season on November 12, 2011!" To me that indicates that in some minds there may have been some doubt.

With regard to ORDA executive pay - is there any evidence that ORDA will increase executive head count to oversee Bell? It's a sincere question - I don't know the answer. Were there any DEC people who were full time managing Belleayre? I don't know that either.

I don't know that much about Belleayre's infrastructure. How much infrastructure upgrade or repair have they had in the last ten years? I'm betting it's less than ORDA venues.

I also don't doubt that there is political motivation behind this or any reorganization of state government. That doesn't automatically mean that this re-org will be bad for Belleayre.

If you want to see Bell stay under DEC control, what is the ideal scenario in your mind?

*(saw this published in the Adirondack Daily Enterprise, trying to find the source of the numbers).
 

catskills

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Ideal solution is NY State Parks and Recreation which would not require paying for private liability insurance and emphasis will be on not loosing money rather than skier visits.
 

oakapple

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I also don't want to see the state operating Bellayre at a loss while distributing large quantities of discounted tickets.
The crucial question is whether they attracted visitors who wouldn't have otherwise come. Skiing is a peculiar business, in that once you've incurred the large expense to open at all, it costs practically the same amount to run the place whether 10,000 skiers show up or 20,000. If you can offer discounts and attract people who wouldn't have otherwise come, that is a good deal. If some of those people love Belleayre so much that they return another day, that's an even better deal.

Indeed, at just about any ski area, there are better deals available than the walk-up price. It happens to be more conspicuous when Belleayre does it, because they're state-owned. I don't know if Belleayre is distributing its discounts wisely or recklessly, but the fact that they exist is not necessarily bad.

I don't know that much about Belleayre's infrastructure. How much infrastructure upgrade or repair have they had in the last ten years? I'm betting it's less than ORDA venues.
Belleayre's only significant visible investment in the last 10 years is the Super Chief lift in 2006, a detachable that replced a fixed-grip lift on the same line.
 
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k123

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Recent article on Belleayre

Easy in the Catskills:
State shouldn't rush to make Belleayre center part of Adirondack-centered authority

Rest here
 

thinnmann

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Looks like it is coming if the budget is approved:

The Budget authorizes the Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC) and the Olympic Regional Development Authority (ORDA) to enter into an agreement to transfer the operations of the Belleayre Mountain Ski Center to ORDA at the close of the 2011-12 ski season. ORDA will allow for more efficient management of Belleayre operations utilizing their expertise in the ski industry.​

Read more: http://poststar.com/blogs/warren_pi...cle_fe921826-4139-11e1-b563-001871e3ce6c.html
 

VTSKICTLAX

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If approved, would that mean that a season pass to Gore and Whiteface would also be good at Belleayre and vice versa? That could be a sweet deal for those of us in the Northeast looking for multiple options during the winter...What is the downside?
 
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