ta&idaho
New member
New York could potentially enter into a license and operating agreement with a private operator and sidestep the lease/sale prohibition in the constitution.
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Belleayre to be part of ORDA?
- Thread starter highpeaksdrifter
- Start date
New York could potentially enter into a license and operating agreement with a private operator and sidestep the lease/sale prohibition in the constitution.
oakapple
New member
I agree that this could probably be done without violating the state constitution. But you still have to come up with a plausible structure that would be in both the operator’s and the state’s interest. It's not so clear that you can. There are plenty of ski areas on state or federally-owned land. But they aren’t encumbered by a state constitution as specific and as limiting as the provisions that control Belleayre. All of that makes Belleayre somewhat undesirable for a private operator.
threecy
New member
On the flip side, these federally-owned land area leases started with zero equipment/trails/infrastructure, whereas Belleayre is turnkey.
oakapple
New member
The conditions that existed decades ago, when those ski areas were created, aren't relevant to the economic decision an operator would make today. No one now is building new ski areas from scratch.
If you were in the ski industry and had capital to invest, the choice probably wouldn't be Belleayre vs. a bare mountain with no infrastructure. The choice would be Belleayre vs. buying an existing ski area that wants to sell vs. expanding an existing area that you already own.
threecy
New member
An operator wouldn't be asked to *buy* Belleayre - it's a turnkey operator with no land, lifts, or facilities to purchase. Whereas, if one were to buy an existing ski area, one would have to purchase the facilities.
One of the biggest challenges in the ski industry is assets - in part, this is why we're seeing REIT's becoming so popular in New England. It's in theory a lot easier to take over the operations of Belleayre and make investments moving forward, than it is to purchase a ski area and continue to make investments.
You ever know people who will talk about stuff even though they have no idea what they are talking about? That is this thread.
kartski
New member
The law is specific:
http://www.adirondack-park.net/history/article14-text.html
" Section 1. The lands of the state, now owned or hereafter acquired,
constituting the forest preserve as now fixed by law, shall be forever
kept as wild forest lands. They shall not be leased, sold or
exchanged, or be taken by any corporation, public or private, nor
shall the timber thereon be sold, removed or destroyed..............
on the slopes of Belleayre Mountain in Ulster and Delaware
counties and not more than forty miles of ski trails thirty to two
hundred feet wide, together with appurtenances thereto, provided that
no more than eight miles of such trails shall be in excess of one
hundred twenty feet wide,......"
I can remember voting on an amendment about 15 years ago allowing them to widen the trails in the State owned area's.
They might be able to lease food service as that is not land specific, but Skiing / Riding, lifts, even Ski School requires use of the land and that is not allowed. It is what it is, the Ski Area was developed before the commercial areas when the demand existed and the resources were not available. I ski Hunter because it's 70 min. from home, Belleayre is 90, it's a long slog down 28.
Black Phantom
Active member
Belleayre should not operate until the State can develop a reasonable financial plan that will not require any additional infusion of taxpayer money.
threecy
New member
I thought the argument was that leasing the area would be too minor of an issue to justify a constitutional amendment...yet widening trails was?
x10003q
Active member
I think the widening was a safety issue related to ski racing and not a financial issue. Gore widened Twister around the same time frame. Gore runs SG, GS, and SL on Twister.
oakapple
New member
Then why not close Central Park? It also requires taxpayer funds, and unlike Belleayre, it doesn't even charge admission.
ta&idaho
New member
We must be really, really far from ski season.
kartski
New member
Cutting Timber. A big down side to that, there was some nice Hardwood taken down that could have been used by crafts persons. Couldn't sold and was mulched for cover. While some instances seem bad, If it were easy to circumvent some political donations might get someone permission to log trees that belong to the people.
threecy
New member
...and is largely privately funded, and I'm going to venture a guess sees more use than Belleayre...
Shifting from DEC to ORDA full time seasonal skilled employees (not cafeteria staff) salaries would go from $12/hour down to $9/hour. Note it costs employees 1-2 gallons of gas to get to and from Belleayre. Less full time employees with benefits. More employees at Belleayre would need food stamps and public assistance. ORDA would have to purchase liability insurance. ORDA would have higher pay for administration and executive salaries.
In the end there is no real savings for the NY state tax payer moving Belleayre from DEC to ORDA.
In the end there is no real savings for the NY state tax payer moving Belleayre from DEC to ORDA.
Black Phantom
Active member
Sounds like Belleayre ought to be shuttered if this is the case. Since when is a ski area deemed to be a welfare institution?
Do all employees all have tip cups out?
thinnmann
New member
Can anyone see Belleayre fitting into this page at all? It isn't going to happen. They barely mention Gore. Bell is going to get the scraps.
http://www.orda.org/corporate/index.php
By the way, that intro states: "In recent years, New York has provided ORDA with over $70 million for venue upgrades." Jesus H!: NYS can certainly afford Belleayre!
http://www.orda.org/corporate/index.php
By the way, that intro states: "In recent years, New York has provided ORDA with over $70 million for venue upgrades." Jesus H!: NYS can certainly afford Belleayre!
Was this determined using beer math?
There is nothing special about bell now. What is your fear if ORDA steps in?
thinnmann
New member
Belleayre is very special to everyone who skis there. It is its small mountain, uncrowded, family oriented, lots of ungroomed, gladed, better-than-expected snow, smells like skiing kind of vibe that makes it special.
I think ORDA has enough on its plate and Belleayre is going to be nothing but its nuisance.
Did you read ORDA's mission statement? Belleayre does not fit in.
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