Balsams Grand Resort teams up with ski industry legend Les Otten

machski · Aug 28, 2018

I know our friends who put down a deposit are growing tired of all the non starts and delays. It was already suppose to be open back when they put their $ down. Would not be surprised if they move to get it back. If a lot of the depositors do the same, that will likely deep six this thing for good.
As for the State, I think they are pretty dumb at this point. I say that because they have already sunk $$ into this thing in the form of Highway upgrades and prep in Dixville Notch. Hell, they already built the damn tunnel for the snow cats under the highway.

Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app

x10003q · Aug 28, 2018

ThinkSnow said:
What pages upon pages are you referring to? Sure its no Thunder Ridge, the plan appears to be a better version of what it was previously-- an all inclusive destination resort. Being in the middle of nowhere was never an issue, considering it was in operation since just after the Civil War, until the current owners couldn't make it work.

Being in the middle of nowhere wasn't an issue when train travel was king and only the rich had air conditioners. People would escape the summer heat in the cities for vacations at The Balsams. Check out Saddleback if you want to see what happens to a ski resort in the middle of nowhere.

Smellytele · Aug 28, 2018

x10003q said:
Being in the middle of nowhere wasn't an issue when train travel was king and only the rich had air conditioners. People would escape the summer heat in the cities for vacations at The Balsams. Check out Saddleback if you want to see what happens to a ski resort in the middle of nowhere.

Well Sugarloaf is also in the middle of nowhere...

ss20 · Aug 28, 2018

I can see a modest development with a small hotel, a few condo complexes, one lodge, 6-10 lifts...but anything beyond that I fail to see the demand.

As a Killington skier I see this a lot...lots and lots of terrain, lifts, lodges, and infrastructure...but how much of it is being used midweek? Lifts are sitting idle, food courts in the lodges don't open, rental guys are on their phones with full racks of skis. Most infrastructure is operating well-under capacity all but the busiest days of the year. Balsams is further and even more grand in scope than Killington.

Killingtime · Aug 28, 2018

Gotta wonder how much the failure of American Skiing Company is weighing on the recent events. Do you want to be the politician who signs off on millions of dollars in loan guarantees to Les Otten after he blew through a very large amount of investor money just a decade ago? ASC came public at $18 a share with a market cap of $245 mil. We all know how it wound up.

benski · Aug 28, 2018

Killingtime said:
Gotta wonder how much the failure of American Skiing Company is weighing on the recent events. Do you want to be the politician who signs off on millions of dollars in loan guarantees to Les Otten after he blew through a very large amount of investor money just a decade ago? ASC came public at $18 a share with a market cap of $245 mil. We all know how it wound up.

That is less sketchy than the president.

machski · Aug 28, 2018

Killingtime said:
Gotta wonder how much the failure of American Skiing Company is weighing on the recent events. Do you want to be the politician who signs off on millions of dollars in loan guarantees to Les Otten after he blew through a very large amount of investor money just a decade ago? ASC came public at $18 a share with a market cap of $245 mil. We all know how it wound up.

I cannot believe that would weigh on the decision. The dynamics of the two ventures are quite different (yeah, they both involved ski resorts, but Balsams is 1). The risks are different. ASC risk was on multiple aquisitions with a high leveraged position, especially real estate. Then being hit with a bad season in all regions except one (and the one had such a huge snow year, travel was nearly impossible on most weekends).
Balsams risk is trying to rekindle a shuttered resort and whether the business plan attracts enough $$ to become sustainable. Many are boohooing the plan due to distance, but I feel the product they are trying to offer, distance and remoteness offers attraction. Many on this board are not going to be attracted (let's face it, many of you don't care for the new Ikon pass as it doesn't have as many close by East resorts on it at as Max did and for more $) to this offering, but I assure you some will and will pony up $ for that. Think of it as a fusion in a way of Hermitage (the plans have the luxury component in them and the remoteness gives the low skier density) but open to the public.

Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app

raisingarizona · Aug 28, 2018

ss20 said:
I can see a modest development with a small hotel, a few condo complexes, one lodge, 6-10 lifts...but anything beyond that I fail to see the demand.

As a Killington skier I see this a lot...lots and lots of terrain, lifts, lodges, and infrastructure...but how much of it is being used midweek? Lifts are sitting idle, food courts in the lodges don't open, rental guys are on their phones with full racks of skis. Most infrastructure is operating well-under capacity all but the busiest days of the year. Balsams is further and even more grand in scope than Killington.

This is a good point. It's not very sustainable if you have x amount of infrastructure and only 35% of that is open or in use for 80% of the season.

It's hard to keep good employees if you can only give them work for two days out of every non holiday week.

Ski area business is hard and it's really hard out in the east. That's what gets me on these boards, I think it's super challenging and interesting.

ThinkSnow · Aug 29, 2018

ss20 said:
Balsams is further and even more grand in scope than Killington.

More grand in scope than Kmart-- well, what isn't? Its also a similar distance as say-- Jay Peak, and gets the same quality/quantity of snowfall.

x10003q · Aug 29, 2018

Smellytele said:
Well Sugarloaf is also in the middle of nowhere...

Sugarloaf also has a history of not making money and a bankruptcy in the late 1980s. It is a good example of frequent, negative financial results despite the monster terrain. This is because Sugarloaf is in the middle of nowhere. Sugarloaf does have a long tradition of excellent skiing dating back to the 1950s which is why it continues to be a popular place to visit. The Balsams does not have a long tradition of big mountain skiing or excellent terrain.

ThinkSnow · Aug 29, 2018

x10003q said:
The Balsams does not have a long tradition of big mountain skiing or excellent terrain.

This is true, however, the property is big enough to change that.

x10003q · Aug 29, 2018

ThinkSnow said:
More grand in scope than Kmart-- well, what isn't? Its also a similar distance as say-- Jay Peak, and gets the same quality/quantity of snowfall.

It depends on where you are starting. Jay is about an hour closer to Montreal vs The Balsams and from here in north NJ, Jay is also about an hour closer. For about an extra half hour I could be at Sugarloaf vs going to The Balsams. The real issue for The Balsams is that most major ski areas are hours closer from the US metro areas.

ThinkSnow said:
This is true, however, the property is big enough to change that.

The property is big enough, but it is not compelling. I would certainly try it, but I doubt it will make me want to regularly drive by all of Vermont, Gore/WF, and some of the closer NH areas.

machski · Aug 29, 2018

x10003q said:
It depends on where you are starting. Jay is about an hour closer to Montreal vs The Balsams and from here in north NJ, Jay is also about an hour closer. For about an extra half hour I could be at Sugarloaf vs going to The Balsams. The real issue for The Balsams is that most major ski areas are hours closer from the US metro areas.

The property is big enough, but it is not compelling. I would certainly try it, but I doubt it will make me want to regularly drive by all of Vermont, Gore/WF, and some of the closer NH areas.

The problem many on this board are having is that yes, the Balsams plan is for a large ski area. But that is not the only selling point to perspective owners here. They are selling a 4 season uplevel resort experience that is tucked up in the Northern Wilderness. Our friends who have a deposit down are case in point. They went in given all the other focuses around the resort that add to the skiing. If you are just looking for a ski area, you are right, many other areas are closer and probably just as good skiing. That is not the demo they are targeting at Balsams.

Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app

ThinkSnow · Aug 29, 2018

x10003q said:
It depends on where you are starting. Jay is about an hour closer to Montreal vs The Balsams and from here in north NJ, Jay is also about an hour closer. For about an extra half hour I could be at Sugarloaf vs going to The Balsams. The real issue for The Balsams is that most major ski areas are hours closer from the US metro areas.

I guess is also depends on perspective-- not everyone is concerned with extra drive time if the skiing is worth it.

x10003q · Aug 29, 2018

machski said:
The problem many on this board are having is that yes, the Balsams plan is for a large ski area. But that is not the only selling point to perspective owners here. They are selling a 4 season uplevel resort experience that is tucked up in the Northern Wilderness. Our friends who have a deposit down are case in point. They went in given all the other focuses around the resort that add to the skiing. If you are just looking for a ski area, you are right, many other areas are closer and probably just as good skiing. That is not the demo they are targeting at Balsams.

Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app

If they are not targeting skiers I am missing the point of The Balsams. If they are only focused on the upscale market, Otten's vision of what The Balsams can be will never happen. They are advertising a full build out of a 2200 acre ski resort with 22 lifts. The skiing is the main reason to go up there and buy property. Everything else at the Balsams besides skiing is easily found at many other resorts.

ThinkSnow · Aug 29, 2018

Here is the list of proposed amenities from the website-- seems they've missed the culinary school mention.

Largest and most advanced ski resort on the East Coast
• Legendary Donald Ross 18-hole Golf Course
• Mountain lakes for boating, swimming, fishing
• Endless miles of maintained trails for biking, running, hiking and designated recreational vehicles
• Fitness Center with Yoga and Pilates
• Aerial Adventure Park
• Performing Arts Center and festivals
• Unique lakeside “Resort Campus” layout
• Adjacency to the US/Canadian 1,000 mile snowmobile “Superhighway”
• All activities are conveniently located on property

eatskisleep · Aug 30, 2018

x10003q said:
Being in the middle of nowhere wasn't an issue when train travel was king and only the rich had air conditioners. People would escape the summer heat in the cities for vacations at The Balsams. Check out Saddleback if you want to see what happens to a ski resort in the middle of nowhere.

Jay Peak also in the middle of nowhere.

sull1102 · Aug 30, 2018

eatskisleep said:
Jay Peak also in the middle of nowhere.

And yet close enough to Montreal and hell even Burlington Vermont isn't that far away and loaded with college kids that praise Jay.

Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app

x10003q · Aug 30, 2018

eatskisleep said:
Jay Peak also in the middle of nowhere.

Jay is about 2 hours from Montreal - Montreal metro population is 4 million
Jay is about 4 hour from Ottawa (1.3 million /metro), 4 hours from Albany, NY, (1.2 million/metro) 3.5 hours from Quebec City (800,000/metro).

AdironRider · Aug 30, 2018

x10003q said:
Jay is about 2 hours from Montreal - Montreal metro population is 4 million
Jay is about 4 hour from Ottawa (1.3 million /metro), 4 hours from Albany, NY, (1.2 million/metro) 3.5 hours from Quebec City (800,000/metro).

Dude, that is still the middle of nowhere.

The point is people still need to drive past many other ski resorts that are CLOSER to get to Jay, or in reference to this thread, the Balsams.

However, The Balsams was being redesigned and marketed as a 4 season destination experience. Jay is more of hey come play in the water park in winter day/weekend trip experience. Different business models ultimately.

Balsams Grand Resort teams up with ski industry legend Les Otten

Well-known member

Active member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Active member

Active member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Member

Active member

Member

Active member

Well-known member

Member

Active member

Member

Well-known member

Member

Active member

Well-known member

Similar threads