• Welcome to AlpineZone, the largest online community of skiers and snowboarders in the Northeast!

    You may have to REGISTER before you can post. Registering is FREE, gets rid of the majority of advertisements, and lets you participate in giveaways and other AlpineZone events!

Mount Snow seeking EB5 investors for Snowmaking, Lodge, and Real-Estate expansions

Euler

New member
Joined
Jan 28, 2007
Messages
1,060
Points
0
Location
Southern Vermont
Looks like PEAKS is in the midst of utilizing the EB5 program to sell greencards to chinese investors. Gosh I think this program is a strange one for our country. Regardless of my political/ethical stance on the program I'll be psyched when Mountain Snow gets more snowmaking online so they have more than 20 trails available after weather like we've been having.

http://dvalnews.com/view/full_story...-China-after-approval?instance=home_news_left
 

ScottySkis

Active member
Joined
Jan 16, 2011
Messages
11,999
Points
38
Location
Middletown NY
It be nice to see more trails opened at Mountain Snow. I know I talked to people on chair their that they wanted to expand the area that plays Grateful dead music I forget the name but you can see lots of potential their.
 

gostan

New member
Joined
Jan 5, 2008
Messages
156
Points
0
Location
West Of Boston
Jay Peak, Sugarbush, Burke, and now Mt. Snow. Todays economics of VT and its ski areas now appear to only be able to raise real capital by trading green cards for cash with a pretty wide open permanent job creation promise.
 

mister moose

Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2007
Messages
971
Points
18
Jay Peak, Sugarbush, Burke, and now Mt. Snow. Todays economics of VT and its ski areas now appear to only be able to raise real capital by trading green cards for cash with a pretty wide open permanent job creation promise.

And what will come of those that don't or can't get on the EB5 train? Gotta wonder what this will do to Magic. Or Bolton Valley. Or Bromely. Or Ascutney's prospects.

Yes, you are creating an improved economy in the local area short term. But it seems like you might also be picking winners and losers. Access to capital will be an unequal competitive edge for the resorts that get the EB5 nod. You can't escape the fact that the EB5 program creates the incentive for someone to make a sizeable investment they wouldn't otherwise make, an investment that domestic investors wouldn't do either.
 
Last edited:

Tin

Active member
Joined
Oct 14, 2009
Messages
2,992
Points
36
Location
ZooMass Slamherst
I believe Stratton does the same thing with greencards. Spoke with a lot of young people from South American countries last time I was there and they have some sort of work program. My GF got into it with one employee from Venezuela who assumed she could not speak Spanish, was quite funny.

Really hope this doesn't impact Magic or Ascutney's possible future. I think most people who ski Mt. Snow would not be fans of Magic anyway with the type of terrain, lifts, and lodge.
 

Smellytele

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 30, 2006
Messages
7,823
Points
48
Location
Right where I want to be
The pond part seems a little bit of a stretch in creating jobs. Making new trails would seem to do the same thing as in at Jay and the west bowl thing.

Vermont seems to be getting all the EB5 project. I know Ragged was going to try for some and there was talk about Sugarloaf area trying for some as well. I think the owners of Balsams in NH should try for some EB5 as well.
 

drjeff

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 18, 2006
Messages
17,347
Points
63
Location
Brooklyn, CT
It be nice to see more trails opened at Mountain Snow. I know I talked to people on chair their that they wanted to expand the area that plays Grateful dead music I forget the name but you can see lots of potential their.

As of right now Scotty, in Mount Snow's master plan (which is often tweaked a bit over the years and has roughly a 30yr time frame for final build out, unfortunately there is very little new trail construction, and what there is slated as of now is more of some minor expansion within the existing ski area boundries as opposed to new expansion outside of the boundries. I hope that changes a bit!

Most of the on hill expansion in the master plan has to due with the referenced in that article expansion from the current roughly 80% snowmaking capacity up to 100%, some lift upgrades (a high speed quad in Sunbrook is the most signifcant lift upgrade, as well as some minor lift configurations and smaller installations focusing on the expansion of the learning area mainly, and base lodge renovations/additions/etc. Then they want to add a number of residential units and some retail space too
 

drjeff

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 18, 2006
Messages
17,347
Points
63
Location
Brooklyn, CT
The pond part seems a little bit of a stretch in creating jobs. Making new trails would seem to do the same thing as in at Jay and the west bowl thing.

Vermont seems to be getting all the EB5 project. I know Ragged was going to try for some and there was talk about Sugarloaf area trying for some as well. I think the owners of Balsams in NH should try for some EB5 as well.

Most of the jobs created would be associated with the increased business that is assumed would happen with more snowmaking and then also related to the residential and retail construction.

On a direct jobs from the pond link, sure you'd have some shorter term ones during the construction phase (which I've heard many admin's at Mount Snow say would end up being a multi year project) and then the need to maybe hire a few extra seasonal snowmakers and possibly groomers. So not exactly and direct permanent jobs directly from the pond construction
 

deadheadskier

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Mar 6, 2005
Messages
25,815
Points
63
Location
Southeast NH
I'd really like to see the formula used to calculate what a "permanent" job means and at what wage versus dollars invested.

What does one 500K investment for a green card supposed to net.
 

Smellytele

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 30, 2006
Messages
7,823
Points
48
Location
Right where I want to be
Most of the jobs created would be associated with the increased business that is assumed would happen with more snowmaking and then also related to the residential and retail construction.

On a direct jobs from the pond link, sure you'd have some shorter term ones during the construction phase (which I've heard many admin's at Mount Snow say would end up being a multi year project) and then the need to maybe hire a few extra seasonal snowmakers and possibly groomers. So not exactly and direct permanent jobs directly from the pond construction

Right but everyone was saying at Jay that it couldn't be used for things of this nature that is why no on hill improvements were being made. I guess that really isn't the case. So I am not dissing MS but Jay for making Disney North.
 
Last edited:

skifree

New member
Joined
Oct 16, 2012
Messages
664
Points
0
I believe Stratton does the same thing with greencards. Spoke with a lot of young people from South American countries last time I was there and they have some sort of work program. My GF got into it with one employee from Venezuela who assumed she could not speak Spanish, was quite funny.

Really hope this doesn't impact Magic or Ascutney's possible future. I think most people who ski Mt. Snow would not be fans of Magic anyway with the type of terrain, lifts, and lodge.
A lot of resorts use foreign workers because they work for peanuts or use it as a vacation.
The eb5 green cards are going to be for the rich foreigners
 

BenedictGomez

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 26, 2011
Messages
10,773
Points
48
Location
PRNJ
And what will come of those that don't or can't get on the EB5 train? Gotta wonder what this will do to Magic. Or Bolton Valley. Or Bromely. Or Ascutney's prospects.

Yes, you are creating an improved economy in the local area short term. But it seems like you might also be picking winners and losers. Access to capital will be an unequal competitive edge for the resorts that get the EB5 nod. You can't escape the fact that the EB5 program creates the incentive for someone to make a sizeable investment they wouldn't otherwise make, an investment that domestic investors wouldn't do either.

Precisely.

Artificial monkeying with economic systems will always result in pain, abuse, and unintended negative financial consequences. And it's worse with relatively closed systems.

The financially non-savvy simply look at the EB-5 program, and all they see is "free money" and "jobs created", and they think "how could this possibly be bad". IMO, you're already seeing the negative effects in Northern Vermont with Jay's acquisition of Burke, something that would not have happened without EB-5.

My biggest fear is that Jay Peak will snatch up Smuggler's Notch next within the next 10 years.

I'd really like to see the formula used to calculate what a "permanent" job means and at what wage versus dollars invested.

Formula?

There's no formula. There's a metric established for a bar to hit, and then that "bar" is laughingly mocked and abused. This EB-5 program does not create anywhere near the permanent jobs they claim (and I'm being kind), and the accounting is a joke.
 

skifree

New member
Joined
Oct 16, 2012
Messages
664
Points
0
Thought mt snow had more then 20% snowmaking.
They do a hell of a job with so little
 

yeggous

Active member
Joined
Oct 8, 2012
Messages
2,156
Points
36
Location
Chelmsford, MA
I get that the Northeast Kingdom is economically depressed compared to most parts of the country. But southern VT? and Ragged? That makes less sense. Especially since Ragged is less than an hour from some very economically healthy areas of southern NH.
 

BenedictGomez

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 26, 2011
Messages
10,773
Points
48
Location
PRNJ
I get that the Northeast Kingdom is economically depressed compared to most parts of the country. But southern VT? and Ragged? That makes less sense. Especially since Ragged is less than an hour from some very economically healthy areas of southern NH.

It's all about who your State Senator knows and the strings he can/cant pull. In this case, Patrick Leahy.
 

drjeff

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 18, 2006
Messages
17,347
Points
63
Location
Brooklyn, CT
Thought mt snow had more then 20% snowmaking.
They do a hell of a job with so little

They have just over 80% snowmaking currently.

The 20% is the additional terrain that they WANT to cover once they have the capital and permitting to build their West Lake snowmaking pond project, which includes the snowmaking expansion to 100%, the conversion of an existing old mining pit about 2 miles South of Mount Snow near the entrance to Haystack into a much larger snowmaking reservoir, the creation of a water acquistion pumping system from a river about 3 miles from where the new snowmaking pond will be, the return of Mount Snow's main existing snowmaking pond, Snow Lake, back to it's "natural" stream state (will require the removal of an existing dam to do so) and the some retropitting/conversion work to Mount Snow's existing snowmaking systemS since they currently have 2 (one that essentially covers Carinthia and the other that covers the rest of the mountain and they basically currently operate independently of one another.

Somewhere well over 10 million is the total price tag for this project that keeps being thrown around, so it is a big $$ project
 

Euler

New member
Joined
Jan 28, 2007
Messages
1,060
Points
0
Location
Southern Vermont
I get that the Northeast Kingdom is economically depressed compared to most parts of the country. But southern VT? and Ragged? That makes less sense. Especially since Ragged is less than an hour from some very economically healthy areas of southern NH.
Almost ALL of Vermont is economically depressed. Public schools in the Mt. Snow valley have well over 50% of their students qualifying for free and reduced lunch. Get off the main roads and the roads around the resorts and poke around the back roads, especially in valley areas and you'll see poverty that is in some cases quite shocking. There are very few well paying jobs in Vermont. The image of Vermont being a Norman Rockwell scene of beautiful white clapboard houses around well manicured town squares is the postcard image we want tourists to see so they come visit. The reality for most locals is sadly quite different.
 

ss20

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 13, 2013
Messages
2,805
Points
63
Location
CT
Almost ALL of Vermont is economically depressed. Public schools in the Mt. Snow valley have well over 50% of their students qualifying for free and reduced lunch. Get off the main roads and the roads around the resorts and poke around the back roads, especially in valley areas and you'll see poverty that is in some cases quite shocking. There are very few well paying jobs in Vermont. The image of Vermont being a Norman Rockwell scene of beautiful white clapboard houses around well manicured town squares is the postcard image we want tourists to see so they come visit. The reality for most locals is sadly quite different.

Yet over the CT river in NH you've got one of the richest states in the country. Funny how that works. Like down here in CT you can go from Greenwich where the average income is over 250k, to the poverty stricken areas of Bridgeport in 20 minutes.
 

deadheadskier

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Mar 6, 2005
Messages
25,815
Points
63
Location
Southeast NH
Yet over the CT river in NH you've got one of the richest states in the country. Funny how that works. Like down here in CT you can go from Greenwich where the average income is over 250k, to the poverty stricken areas of Bridgeport in 20 minutes.

To be fair, New Hampshire's wealth is due in large part to the proximity of it's largest population centers to Boston. With the exception of College towns like Keene and Hanover, you get away from the 3/93 Corridor or the Seacoast and NH has some very impoverished areas just like Southern Vermont or the NEK.
 

Glenn

Active member
Joined
Oct 1, 2008
Messages
7,682
Points
38
Location
CT & VT
Almost ALL of Vermont is economically depressed. Public schools in the Mt. Snow valley have well over 50% of their students qualifying for free and reduced lunch. Get off the main roads and the roads around the resorts and poke around the back roads, especially in valley areas and you'll see poverty that is in some cases quite shocking. There are very few well paying jobs in Vermont. The image of Vermont being a Norman Rockwell scene of beautiful white clapboard houses around well manicured town squares is the postcard image we want tourists to see so they come visit. The reality for most locals is sadly quite different.

This is spot on. We see it driving up. It makes you realize what you have; and to be thankful for it.

$52 million...wow. That's some money.
 
Top