Should Mad River Glen install snowmaking?

[Joshua B]

To me, there is no obvious answer to this question--unlike other questions like should they remove the single chair, should they allow snowboarders. What do you think? And yes, I know they already have a couple hoses that can reach up to a few of the trails at the base of the mountain. I'm talking about installing piping and buying modern snow guns.

 

[riverc0il]

while i love natural snow, i have no problems with blowing a solid base early season then letting the natural snow build up on a bigger base. it means you start the season earlier and ski later. and after the innitial grooming of the man made, it can be all natural for the rest of the season.

that said, snowmaking would instantly cause a likely $10 increase in ticket prices, so i say no way. i think MRG already has a high enough ticket price considering it's lack of ammenities and modern features. which i'm glad for that lack, don't get me wrong, but snow making isn't worth the cost.

it's probably the last thing the co-op would think about buying money for i'd guess. not seeing much snow making equipment on the sides of the trails also keeps that throw back nostalgia feel too. also adds something to the unique mistique of the area.

 

[jlangdale]

Couldn't hurt.

 

[Joshua B]

I think Steve makes some great points about the pluses and minuses of snowmaking at MRG. Yes, the pipes would be unsightly, and yes, they'd have to raise ticket prices. Too bad, because otherwise I'd want it!

I'd like to add that I believe their current ticket prices are fair, even with the lack of amenities. Nowhere else around do you get a true 2,000 foot mountain with continues pitch for that price. As far as I'm concerned MRG is tops for sheer awesomeness. Mad River Glen just reeks of awesomeness!

 

[jimme]

No. they don't need it. While I'm the first to jump onto the man-made in the early season I know my favorite ski areas and trails don't have that much snowmaking.

Snowmaking has become somewhat of a necessary evil to get areas open early and insure they remain open during low-snow years. If it were not for the larger areas making so much snow, some of the NELSAP areas might still be open. The small areas that could not afford snowmaking lost business to the larger areas that could make it, and "guarantee" good conditions.

Jimme

 

[jlangdale]

Well well... look what I found:

http://www.nelsap.org/vt/history.html

Mountain maintenance was still in its infancy during the late 40’s and 50’s. After a significant snowstorm, the snow needed to be packed down in order to become more skiable. At Mad River Glen, a ski area founded in 1949 by Roland Palmedo, employees would "foot pack the entire mountain, from top to bottom," (Mad River Glen: The Early Years). Crews would side step the entire mountain, packing the snow as they went. No machines existed at that time that could groom a slope. Also, trails had to picked clean of rocks, roots, and other debris during the summer in order to be skiable. Big Bromley, through this extensive "summer grooming," could "ski and ski well with just four inches of snow," (Older 18).

Looks like Mad River used to manually groom.

 

[nightingale]

After this season, perhaps MRG should consider a snowmaking upgrade..

 

[thetrailboss]

They already have some snowmaking.

 

[David Metsky]

No, there's absolutely no need for snowmaking beyond the two guns they have for high traffic areas. Skiing natural snowfall is a given at MRG, it's part of what we love about it. Pipes would limit access to the woods on the sides of every trail.

Besides, they don't have a large water source so it's moot anyways.

-dave-

 

[skibum1321]

Part of the challenge and allure of MRG is the fact that you know it is natural snow. This means that you will need to dodge rocks, bare spots and other natural obstacles. If they added snowmaking, it would take some of the challenge out of the mountain IMO. Steve, I don't know if I necessarily agree that a trail would ski the same if they just laid snow down early season. I think the other snow would still tend to get scraped down to the manmade snow base, which is the last thing that I, or most MRG skiers, would want. Like I said earlier, it would change the feel and character of the trails too.

 

[maplevalleymaster]

Mad River Glen

I think they should absolutely install snowmaking and I think the singal chair needs to stay. As for those doubles, I don't know....

 

[smootharc]

I googled "mad river glen" & snowmaking

....and the shareholder mission statement came up. I clicked on it. Here it is:

http://www.madriverglen.coop/?Page=mrgstrat.html

If you ever wanted to know what the "philosophy" of MRG is, and if you were curious how it compared to McMountains and large Corporate mountains, then read this through. "MRG....founded by skiers, protected for skiers" might as well be their motto.

Re: the snowmaking. The link above is explicit regarding the desireability of natural snow, and snowmaking was only put at the lower 15-20% of the mountain for early/late season extension, and mid season bolstering of lower altitude terrain. But it also mentions, at the way bottom, that review and development of the snowmaking/water withdrawal plan is one of the co-op's stragegic initiatives.

I vote keep it at the bottom only, like now, and ski natural. Despite this year's horrid winter for natural (and snowmaking), as a passholder I enjoyed the challenge, and the few bright spots were bright indeed.

To broaden this a bit, with the co-op and the small Summit Ventures next door, you have a valley with as close to "down home cooking" as you'll find in the ski industry. Add to it the terrain and snow....and that's why the MRV is my choice for a second home.

 

[PowderDeprived]

Mad river glen allready has snowmaking, while not extensive it does really help them out and really helps them late in the season.

Some reasons not to install snowmaking at MRG

1. Narrow steep windy, or gladed terrain is not the best for snowmaking.

2. Even this season, after MRG reopened they made it untill April 1. There are plenty of places for instance in the Mid Adlandtic with 100% snowmaking, and snow cannons lining every single trail, that closed weeks before that. So even in a "mediocre, sketchy, low snow" season MRG still gets plenty of snow.

3. Natural Terrain Rocks, People who like groomed cruisers with ample coverege can go next door, and if they like groomed expert stuff they can go to K-Mart. MRG IS NOT K-MART. Furthermore if you go next door, the trails at Sugabush that bear the most resembelense to MRG ARE NATURAL. (Moonshine, Twist, Castlerock, Morningstar, Hammerhead, Black Dimond, and Tumbler. not to mention all the others) A natural trail, might be bumpy here, ultra thin here, deep pow for a few yards, icy, with grassy, rockey spots here and there, and sections that are not much wider than your skis. Having natual terrain with no base, really adds a whole dimmension of challenge, and keeps things from getting borring.

4
Enviromental Impact, Face it snowmaking pipelines, hoses, towers etc... are ugly, and can spoil a perfectly good view. MRG phillisophy doesn't really seem to be one where they would like that.

5
Cost. Well, you would need to designe a watershead, dig a pond, install a pumping station, upgrade the electrical infastructure, spend about a half a million or more on compressors, and then run pipelines up the mountain, install hydrants, and then buy the acutal guns. Then you would have to spend tens of thousands of dollars on electricity every time you made snow, not to mention the added labor costs.

(MORE EXPENSIVE FOOD, AND HIGHER PRICED LIFT TICKETS)

6. MRG just wouldnt be MRG, alot of people who ski there, just won't ski anywher else.

With all that said, I think if MRG adds any snowmaking, it should be just to extend their current system a little higer up the mountain, 500" at the most. That with snowfarming, would be more than enough, and wouldn't have much of an impact, and wouldn't cost much. Enough said, I should probably end this rant.

 

[Tin Woodsman]

Couldn't hurt.

Wrong. Not only could it hurt, but it would effectively end the MRG experience that generations of skiers know and love. While snowmaking can be helpful in situations where you want to extend your season or recover from a thaw, it also has significant downsides that some here don't seem to appreciate.

1) As others have pointed out, purchasing and running an modern snowmaking plant is EXTREMELY expensive. The amount of energy and water consumed by MRG would increase by literally thousands of % over their current baseline. This is one of the main drivers behind the expensive lift tickets we see at MRG larger competitors. The MRG day pass would almost certainly increase by $10-15/day.

2) Snowmaking pipes are made of steel. Steel is not a very malleable substance and it's much easier to build a straight pipe than one that twists and turns. Given the layout of many of MRG's best runs, it wouldn't be practicle to run snowmaking lines up them with all the turns it would require. Unless of course you wanted to straighten out those trails (like nearly all new runs in the East over the last 30 years) so as to facilitate easier installation of snowmaking.

3) Snowmaking kills trees. This is especially so on narrow trails where the forest or islands of trees are in close proximity to the pipes. Exhibit A - Murphy's "Glade" at Sugarbush. Exhibit B - skiers' right of Superstar Exhibit C - skiers left of Ripcord at SB. The list goes on and on. Snowmaking would inevitably lead to a gradual widening of MRG's trails and the elimination of its mid-trail tree islands.

4) This is related to #1, but MRG doesn't have any reliable water sources up there at the top of the App Gap. It would either have to dig a retaining pond somewhere near the Mill Brook, or pipe in water from further downstream. Both alternatives are expensive and impractical, not to mention next to impossible given the relevant regulatory hurdles in involved.

So in sum, installing snowmaking in a meaningful way would essentially destroy everything that makes MRG unique and wonderful today. Other than that, it's a great idea.

 

[PowderDeprived]

I really don't think MRG needs much snowmaking. There is really no need to have it at the top, or even mid mountain. It makes sense to me that they just mabey double the size of the the current system. (Liberate a few surplus abandond guns from the woods at Sugarbush at 2:00 in the morning?) Just making 6" of snow on the lower portions of the traills feeding down to the base would make a difference, and woudln't require building any infastructure.

Another possible solution could be to get large capacity airless snowcannon, mount it on a cat, and have a few smaller water lines up the hill to some stratigic locations. Then just blow large piles (whales) and push them down with a cat. This could be done for under 20 grand, and wouldn't require compressors, and additional electric capicity. and wouldnt have an evnviromental impact.

Extensive snowmaking at MRG is a bad idea, and hopefully that never happens, or needs to happen due to (climate change or the G word)

 

[vimbuza]

But should they allow snowboarding?

 

[skibum]

But should they allow snowboarding?

They used to. Back when Vermonters were as open-minded as they believe themselves to be.
[flame suit on]

 

[Geoff]

This thread is heresy.

 

[riverc0il]

They used to. Back when Vermonters were as open-minded as they believe themselves to be.
[flame suit on]

i would be willing to be a majority of share holders aren't even vermonters. if not allowing snowboarders is a sign of not being open minded, fine by me.

in regards to the original topic, my post when this thread was first started utilized a more logical approach as to why MRG does not need additional snow making. having skied there more than once now, i can fully and emotionally reply a whole hearted hells no.

 

[David Metsky]

Snowmaking at MRG is applying a fix to a problem that doesn't exist. The mountain is doing fine financially, the shareholders are happy with the way things are, and those of us who ski there rejoice in accepting the challenging snow conditions.

I feel the same way about the snowboarding question. Unless there are dramatic changes in the business and social climate at MRG, neither of these are going to change.

Besides, MRG has snowmaking, just not much. But it is enough to meet the needs of the ski area, mainly coverage in high traffic areas low on the mountain.

-dave-