Towards Energy Independence

[trtaylor]

Kudos to New York State for being a leader. See http://thefraserdomain.typepad.com/energy/2006/08/new_york_to_con.html

The personal transporation sector uses 40+% of our petroleum energy in this country. In the short term, increasing fuel efficiency will make a difference. Longer term, a switch to flex fuel vehicles, along with promising cellulose ethanol technology is a likely solution. See http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-570288889128950913&q=Ethanol

Tim

 

[bigbog]

....

...and for flying the finger at Mr. Fossilfuel-Boy Dubya.

 

[Marc]

I'm in the process of developing a mechanism for containing and compressing the methane I generate from a hardy meal of soft tacos and burritos.



Amazingly but not totally unexpected, energy yield increases exponentially with mass of refried beans.

 

[hammer]

I'm in the process of developing a mechanism for containing and compressing the methane I generate from a hardy meal of soft tacos and burritos.



Amazingly but not totally unexpected, energy yield increases exponentially with mass of refried beans.

Maybe you can join in with the cows...

http://www.nativeenergy.com/CH_SchrackFarm.htm

 

[ChileMass]

Hey kiddies - let's keep this one above board and apolitical if possible - OK?????

 

[hammer]

OK, going a bit back on topic...

While I think being able to charge hybrid vehicles is a good idea, let's please remember that charging requires electricity, and electricity generation (unless we start using a lot more nuclear, solar, or wind) is hardly non-polluting.

I'm sure it's been thrashed around here before, but in the end, there will likely never be a usable energy source that will not have an impact to the environment...therefore, IMHO the best thing that we can do is figure out how we can consume less.

 

[loafer89]

From what I have read, photovoltaic cells could be used to produce 99.99% pure hydrogen to be used for motor vehicle/ other fuels. This is a very nonpolluting way to have a renwable energy source.

The main problems with this technique at the present time is the capacity of the current solar technology and the storage limitations of batteries for when there is bad weather.
Both problems are being addressed and promise a bright future.

 

[Marc]

OK, going a bit back on topic...

While I think being able to charge hybrid vehicles is a good idea, let's please remember that charging requires electricity, and electricity generation (unless we start using a lot more nuclear, solar, or wind) is hardly non-polluting.

I'm sure it's been thrashed around here before, but in the end, there will likely never be a usable energy source that will not have an impact to the environment...therefore, IMHO the best thing that we can do is figure out how we can consume less.

Well, when you break it down to basics, our only two real sources of convenient energy with todays technology is the sun and the heat left inside the Earth. Fossil fuels are a combination of solar and geothermal stored energy.

I believe in the not so distant future, although I have a judgement disagreement about this with YSD, possibly within my lifetime, we will see sustainable, viable and safe fusion reactors which will have little to no environmental impact. Combine that with fuel cell vehicles and we have a bright future.

If one considers where we were a 100 - 150 years ago, the technological hurdles to go from where we are now to a system I mentioned above seem relatively small. The economic hurdles are probably bigger, now that I think about it.

 

[loafer89]

The political hurtles are even larger, big oil will not go away without a fight and there are alot of powerfull people in the world that stand to lose income sources as oil fades away if we start to use more renewable sources of energy. I do not forsee this happening in my lifetime as we will probably suck this planet dry before we finally commit to another energy source + the fact that we have 200-250 years worth of domestic coal to supply alot of our energy needs.

 

[ctenidae]

Fusion's a long shot, not because it's hard but because there's not a whole lot of work being done on it. As I recall, Los Alamos and the University of Chicago are about the only places real fusion research is going on, and Chicago may have trimmed theirs down a bit.

I still maintain that the best thing that can happen for our oil independence is $5 gas. Short run pain, long run gain. There's a huge amount of money going into renewable energy (I believe $15 billion is the current number for the amount invested over the past year). You've got Bill Gates, Richard Branson, Larry Page, Warren Buffet as the superstar investors, and there is a lot of other private capital being thrown at it.

In order of likelihood, I see ethanol, solar (for electricity and hydrogen production), biodiesel, and coal ("clean" and liquified) as the "next big things." 5 years ago there were 45 ethanol plants. Now there are 440, with another 100 permitted and 75 being planned. The cool thing about the technology is that the plants are being built to use corn, but all are made to be convertible to cellulose (switchgrass, corn stalks, waste). There's one in Nebraska that is right next to a cattle feedlot. They capture the methane from the cows, and then feed the used corn back to the cows. Estimate is it's 15 times more efficient than a traditianl plant.

Quite a few people are betting on solar, but it's split into two camps- some say there needs to be a whole lot more money to hit the breakthrough that pushes it into practical, the other says we're very close to it. I think we're pretty darn close to a great breakthrough. One of the major problems with solar is the massive amount of surface area you need, adn a few technologies have come out that would allow you to embedd solar cells in the glass that goes on buildings, making a skyscraper one huge collector (which would power itself during the day when it's needed). Another company makes printable cells than can be painted on fabric, which is pretty exciting.

Biodiesel and coal are chugging along- the technology is here, it's doable, but it's slow to be adopted because it's not seen as being any too much better than fossil fuels. Coal will likely end up being a source of carbon for plastics rather than fuel (the use that oil should be put to). Biodiesel is taking off for trucking, but there's some resistance to diesel in general in America for cars.

And that's my $.02

 

[Marc]

Well, as of now I think the ITER reactor in France is the most promising research project for sustainable fusion. The first step is a sustainable tritium - deuterium reaction and hopefully, later on down the road, deuterium - deuterium will be possible, as it produces more energy, and is fairly simple (apparently) to refine deuterium from sea water. It requires higher activation energy than tritium - deuterium and higher temperatures as well.

I do think you're right, though, coal, biodiesel, ethanol, possibly more fission will be the transitional energy sources and possibly later down the road will be widespread use of IC hydrogen cars as a precursor to hydrogen fuel cells.

 

[ctenidae]

Forgot about ITER. Their research is great, but their funding and administration isn't so hot.
Didn't they run into some snag on the deuterium from seawater idea? I seem to remember someone saying that with current methds, to get enough out they'd need three oceans. I could be wong, though.

 

[Marc]

Forgot about ITER. Their research is great, but their funding and administration isn't so hot.
Didn't they run into some snag on the deuterium from seawater idea? I seem to remember someone saying that with current methds, to get enough out they'd need three oceans. I could be wong, though.

Well you're definitely wong. Whether you're wrong or not is a different story. I don't know, I haven't followed the developments from ITER for a couple years now. I'm out of the loop.

 

[ctenidae]

Well you're definitely wong. Whether you're wrong or not is a different story. I don't know, I haven't followed the developments from ITER for a couple years now. I'm out of the loop.

Heh. ITER, loop, proton accelerator, there's a terrible physics joke in there somewhere. My feelings on ITER are informed by probably horribly dated information as well.

 

[bigbog]

.........

.....(snipped)...I'm sure it's been thrashed around here before, but in the end, there will likely never be a usable energy source that will not have an impact to the environment...therefore, IMHO the best thing that we can do is figure out how we can consume less.

Which is where the regulation of specific portions of subsystems in the automobile guarantees that mileage will not be increased beyond a certain point than what the manufacturer...along with the fossil fuel industrial complex;-) of oil refineries, oil producers etc, and parts producers dictate!
What automobiles we buy are nothing more than the Walmart brand of PC....with the "integrated" components standardized...and "extras" adding onto price, and we are bound by laws not to "adjust" (or improve) their workings beyond a certain point. Believe me, once you get to a certain point, you run into legal brick walls....prohibiting improvements.
The EPA's level of pollution guidelines, penalties, and methods of enforcement are sad...

$.01

 

[thetrailboss]

Which is where the regulation of specific portions of subsystems in the automobile guarantees that mileage will not be increased beyond a certain point than what the manufacturer...along with the fossil fuel industrial complex;-) of oil refineries, oil producers etc, and parts producers dictate!
What automobiles we buy are nothing more than the Walmart brand of PC....with the "integrated" components standardized...and "extras" adding onto price, and we are bound by laws not to "adjust" (or improve) their workings beyond a certain point.
The EPA, as has certain level(s) of the CIA, caved in to various administration's wishes of the moment and has never set strict polution guidlines or penalties, nor has it strictly enforced...

$.01

Again, let's try not to drift into politics on either side, please....

 

[ctenidae]

The EPA has caved in to various administration's wishes of the moment and has never set strict polution guidlines or penalties, nor has it strictly enforced...

$.01

Yup- everyone's guilty of this, no matter the political stripe. A lot of the reasons, though, are truly economic, and not just to the benefit of Big Oil or auto manufacturers. The switch to Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel (ULSD), mandated for this October, could add up to 10 cents/ton/mile in shipping costs, or more, depending on how quickly and how strictly enforced the regs are.

Protecting the environment is expensive, especially when trying to recover from entrenched systems. No one has ever gotten re-elected costing voters money (in any easily identifiable way).

 

[loafer89]

One of the major problems with solar is the massive amount of surface area you need

An article that I read about solar power said that the surface area needed to provide the entire U.S with it's energy needs would be comprable in size to the state of Vermont. Nevada has plenty of unocuppied desert that has sunshine better than 300 days a year.

I agree that the paint on photo cells sounds really exciting.

 

[hammer]

The switch to Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel (ULSD), mandated for this October, could add up to 10 cents/ton/mile in shipping costs, or more, depending on how quickly and how strictly enforced the regs are.

Maybe this means that we'll finally have the option to buy new diesel cars in Mass. :-?

I'm not sure how they are on pollution, but diesels do get better gas mileage.

 

[ctenidae]

An article that I read about solar power said that the surface area needed to provide the entire U.S with it's energy needs would be comprable in size to the state of Vermont. Nevada has plenty of unocuppied desert that has sunshine better than 300 days a year.

I agree that the paint on photo cells sounds really exciting.

Getting the electricity from Nevada to New York isn't easy, though, and neither is maintiaining a cell bank that big. I can't even imagine the environmental impact of covering that much desert in shade, either.

But yeah, there's some pretty exciting solar stuff around the corner. One company, who I can't disclose, is about to market a solar/H2 generator aimed at hotels- one unit can provide power for something like 50 rooms by using solar to conver water to hydrogen to use ina fuel cell. It will, supposedly, generate enough excess H2 to power a couple of hydrogen cars, too. There's some deal with the fuel cells that produces waste heat that can be used to provide hot water, as well. Pretty nifty, if it actually works.