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Who wants to move to Salt Lake?

thebigo

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And her sister smashed bumps for three days with dad at crystal in June. Watching these two girls learn to ski has been the greatest joy of my life.

We all got an entire life to make money, only a few years to have kids.
 

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deadheadskier

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About those child expenses...lol

For my 3 and 7 year old, their 529k accounts are likely going to have be $529k accounts (Two of them!!) at the current pace. 😐🤬
 

Harvey

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i have been making payments for 12 years. i have paid an amount equal to approximately 60% of my principal balance. my principal balance is higher than the day i left fordham.
:( that is tough.

I had one child very late (47) and it was hard to keep up.

In our family the adults try to pay college for the kids. I got off with no debt.

May well be able to do that for my daughter, but full disclosure it's mostly the grandparents who did it.
 

kancamagus

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...

Throwing money at the problem (via debt forgiveness and easy loans) doesn't fix the root cause of the issue. Several things need to happen:
1) We need to stop encouraging all kids to go to college and stop stigmatizing those that don't. College isn't for everyone and high schools need to stop the silly notion that it is. There are plenty of people that would be far better off going to a trade school than college for example.
2) We need to get kids to understand the costs and make more cost effective choices. If demand for expensive private colleges remains high, there's also no incentive for those schools to do anything about costs. Drop demand for them and maybe they will wake up.
3) Stop making money so readily available and stop preying on students. I actually do agree with one thing Kusty said earlier in this thread about interest rate limits for student loans. Student loans should not be overly profitable for either the government or any private institution that offers them. I don't think interest rates should be 0 though as I do think some debt with some small interest rates teaches kids a bit about financial responsibility. 0% interest just turns it into "free money" again which doesn't help the root cause.

Kudos to anyone that read my entire rambling. The notion of debt forgiveness rubs me the wrong way, but so do the astronomical rates schools charge today. I personally think it is downright shameful what my own alma mater charges now and it really bothers me whenever I see the numbers.

Agreed on nearly all points (especially those that tackle the root cause of the problem: there is no imperative for colleges to rein in tuition increases), but disagree on the merits of a one-time debt forgiveness.

The problem is there is already a massive amount of outstanding student loan debt. Any new actions would only reduce the harm from future students having future debt. But it doesn't solve the massive debt burden that already exists. And that is holding back a ton of people from making the next steps in their life like being able to afford to buy a house or a condo, getting married, having kids. Too many people are now stuck in a trap of trying to save up for 20% down for a house, only to see house prices and interest rates and cash buyers from hedge funds push that dream further and further away. People are hitting pause on major life advancements because they just can't afford it.

For the first time in many generations, a lot of younger folks now feel like their life will not be either as good as, or better off than their parents generation. That level of generation-wide dread and anxiety is like a cancer on our society. It's going to consume us, and we need to address it now.

It's not a magic bullet, but forgiving some of that student loan debt would help. Alternately, perhaps a different approach could also help. Maybe something like for a two year period, every dollar you spend in existing student loan repayment (for loans incurred prior to this year only), the government will match it 2x, with that going directly to the principle. Full disclosure, I paid off my (mid five figure range) of student loans within a few years of graduating a decade ago. It sucked, I lived like a poor college kid and drove a <$1k beater car for those few years, but I paid off that debt. So this isn't me self advocating out of selfish interest.

Longer term, I think the best thing to rein in college tuition costs is to also do a few things:

1. Agree on prior #1, but with one additional caveat: expand the scope of trade schools to include white collar 6-24 month certification programs. While there are professions that need 4+ years of college off the bat, there are a lot of white collar office jobs that could be done successfully with more of a trade school like certification program.

..skipping 2/3 because I agree 100%.

4. There should be quality trade schools, community colleges, and state colleges that are essentially free. Let's say no more than $10-15k per year costs all-in, so they still have some skin in the game, but could afford to pay their way through working a part time and summer job to avoid student loans for anyone who can maintain at least a B average. If enough kids take up these state schools, that should lower demand for the more exclusive colleges, which should put a downward pressure on their tuition.

5. Related to #1 and #2, stop putting so much weight on college rankings. Especially stuff like US News and World Report. Their algorithm that spits out the "best" schools was created to essentially always put tiny, exclusive, wealthy liberal arts colleges that have massive endowments and provide expensive perks at the top, while more average colleges that cater to actually lift folks up out of poverty and provide them with a decent education are punished. Malcolm Gladwell had two great podcast episodes on this:

https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/revisionist-history/project-dillard

6. Hiring managers should stop making a four year degree a hard requirement for most jobs unless it's strictly necessary to have that knowledge and/or certification for the job at hand. Like one area where it's necessary: I want our ski lifts designed by competent civil/structural engineers, ideally so they could be finished correctly the first time and within one summer. ;)
 

jimk

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You guys don't want to know what I paid for college tuition back in the 1970s. I went to Univ of Maryland. I was a non-state resident (came from Virginia) and therefore had to pay an upcharge, believe the tuition per year for two semesters was about $1500 total! I was on the track and cross country teams at Maryland and got free room and board.

My Dad paid for all my college tuition. Except I worked in the summers as a trash man and when I was around a junior he made me pay for a new family TV set that he wanted. In the early 1970s a good, 21-inch console color television might cost you $500. In today's money that would be around $3300! I joke with my kids that my college "summer internships" were riding behind a trash truck with the City of Alexandria Virginia Sanitation Department and I bartered a TV set for four years of college.:giggle:

My Dad (RIP) also paid the majority of college costs for my other three siblings. About a dozen years ago when two of my kids were in college at the same time and I was driving used cars and scrimping to manage the costs I had a conversation with my Dad. I asked him whether it was difficult for him to pay for college for his four kids back in the 60s and 70s? He made a middle/upper middle class income and my Mom was a stay at home Mom. He said he didn't suffer too much to pay for his kid's colleges. In fact, he bought a second home (ski cabin at a resort in western PA) in 1972 that we all enjoyed for about 15 years. I was never able to financially pull-off the second home thing and as a young man I thought my Dad's generation (the Greatest Generation) was financially luckier than mine. Funny how many of us, no matter what generation, have that grudge against the previous generation until we gain more maturity.

I believe the advent of double income families has generally raised-up many middle/upper middle class folks standard of living compared to 50 years ago. Fancier cars, fancier homes, more expensive grown-ups toys, more leisure travel, way more dining out, but at a cost of less one-on-one time between children and parents, especially for Moms.
 

Harvey

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I believe the advent of double income families has generally raised-up many middle/upper middle class folks standard of living compared to 50 years ago. Fancier cars, fancier homes, more expensive grown-ups toys, more leisure travel, way more dining out, but at a cost of less one-on-one time between children and parents, especially for Moms.
Agree 100%.

Big advantage for the first to do it. Long run not so good for all.
 

NYDB

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5k per year in their 529 plans since birth for my kids, plus other misc. birthday cash etc.. Should be roughly 225k for each when college time comes. not patting myself on the back here. It’s only 100k (20 years x 5k) invested in each kids education. it’s not that much money to save really.

I feel bad for those with enormous student loans but who in their right mind lets their kid borrow that much money at that age?
It’s insane.

And I do agree that there is a lot of lifestyle creep happening for younger people before they get their financial houses in order.
they ain’t spending all their $ on avocado toast but they do seem to waste a bunch of money on shit that seems frivolous.
 

Zand

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loon. they put in perfect seeded bumps for a few hundred vertical right at hte gondola base
I've skied loon a bunch of times but I avoid the gondola to the point that I didn't even know that view from above 😆

Hopefully they'll do that again next year. Looks good!
 

deadheadskier

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Community college has been mentioned a few times. I'll share my experience with it. I'm a bit unique in that I actually went to Community College and received an Associates 14 years after already getting my Bachelor's.


I got a Bachelor's in hospitality management as I wanted to have a full time year round job with benefits in a ski town as not only did I love skiing, but I liked working in that industry when I was 19. I was very fortunate in that my parents covered about 75% of the cost and I came out of it with roughly $20k in debt. I found out working in management in a ski town positively sucks. It's 60 to sometimes 90+! hours per week during peak season. I had the worst work / life balance ever and by the time I was 30 I had quit the operations side of the industry and moved to sales while still within the industry. Better work / life balance, but not much better money.

I always had an interest in healthcare / science as a kid and researched that medical technology sales can be quite lucrative. Even though I was successful in sales in the hospitality industry, no one in tech would give me a sales gig. This was also during the 2009-2011 time period when the job market wasn't great.

I needed to do something to separate myself from other job candidates and I figured more education was the path there. I looked at MBAs and was floored by the $100k costs for two years. Then I thought, what if I get a skill that will get me a decent job in a hospital should sales not pan out. I looked at Community College offerings. A two year X-ray tech program was $12k. I ended up having to go an additional year part time for 12 credits to redo several prerequisites as my credits weren't accepted from by Bachelor's degree ten years prior. Too much time had passed. So all in it was 3 years time and roughly $14k.

Here is the thing about Community College. Their prerequisite courses are the exact same as a 4 year school. My perception at 19 was Community College was for slackers or people not smart enough for a 4 year degree. Very snobby on my part, but that's really what you hear in High School preparing for life's next move. "Oh, so and so is going to Community College because he's not smart." I was floored and found the education just as good for basic college courses as University of Vermont offered me 14 years prior.

I paid my way as I went and was able to graduate debt free on that $14k expense. Had I got an MBA, I'd probably have racked up $85k in debt and would still be paying for it.

The move paid off and I was immediately picked up on a Med Sales gig after graduation. If it hadn't worked like that, I still would have been able to get a $55-75k a year X-ray job right away. That's a really good ROI on a $14k expense. That's what most of my (much younger) classmates did and many of them are now late 20s, no debt, starting a family and making a solid living.

I will likely be encouraging my kids to look towards the CC route to start. Many two year medical degrees that pay a decent wage. Do that first and if motivated for a Bachelor's after, transfer in for years 3-4. Hopefully I'll have saved enough to cover the CC + 2 more years for their Bachelor's and they come out of it debt free. Also will suggest looking at trades if their aptitude is there vs academia.

It's downright shameful how Community College has such a bad reputation. It can open doors for people oftentimes just as well as a four year school depending on area of focus. $14k for a CC degree vs $200k for a four year says it all.

Only downside personally with this path is I didn't have kids until I was 39 and 43. I wish I had followed my path about ten years younger than I did.
 

tumbler

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This has also given me some good insight and perspective into the younger generation. I'm a "each to his own" type of person so if not having kids is your choice, great. If having 12 kids is your choice, great. I have 3, now teenagers, and it has been difficult and very trying at times but has been very rewarding. It's the little things than mean the most. And to have ski buddies to ride the lift with is great. Once we start skiing they are gone :p
I do worry about their future and am learning what their concerns are. I have read a study that many are not wanting to have children because of global warming and are worried that there will not be a planet left to raise kids. It seemed crazy to me but in the perspective of the pandemic they are worried. And don't get me started on technology and the effect on them...
 

BodeMiller1

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DHS:
This is simple, take all of your 529 and by Ford Motor Co. (ticker F). I own no shares, butt that is were it's at. Is it risky? That's your call Buddy-Roo.

Look at the graph, (candles, high and low over a time period) for 30 or 40 years. You can see where the stock is going.

Investing is exactly like skiing; ski with others better than you... then do your own thing.

Yep

Buy into this down turn, dollar cost into it (you buy more shares when the price is low and ....)
 

jaytrem

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I graduated HS in 89, did the CC thing for 2 years. Had a scholarship that paid for a good chunk of it. I think it was $1000 a semester. Best class I ever had was there, Marine Biology. Most of the class even showed up on a Saturday for an optional field trip.

Moved onto NJIT and the schorlarship rolled over to there. Probably covered a 3rd of the tuition. I lived at home, so that saved a boat load. My last undergrad semester I did something called the BS/MS program. Take 2 grad courses and it counts for both. That program also allowed you to work 10 a week for free tuition and another 10 for the same amount in a stipend. I think it was around $3500 a semester. That continued for grad school. Got off cheap I guess. I would not complain if my kids took a similar route.
 

KustyTheKlown

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lol did this guy really just tell you to invest your childrens' college funds solely in ford stock? jesus fuckin christ this guy.
 

BodeMiller1

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U.N.H. Durham was $3,400 room and board (semester). I transferred from Assumption Worcester, MA which was $24,000. Best thing that ever happened to me was not being able to afford to go back to Worcester.

At U.N.H. I hung out with a guy on The U.S. ski team (Evans) he wouldn't smoke with me, butt promised once his comps were over, it was a great day!

U.N.H. has the largest collection of books on fishing in the world. So there's that.

Weird thing is the places I work for pay for me to go to school, I went to Plymouth State only to ski at Cannon for $8 a day. NorthEastern Boston, I could walk to Fenway and watch The Red Sox for $10.
 

BodeMiller1

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lol did this guy really just tell you to invest your childrens' college funds solely in ford stock? jesus fuckin christ this guy.
I was in the room when we (The Boston Co.) did the first Euro Transaction in The United States.

I've made a small fortune in F over the last 35 years. Look at the Munder Net Net Mutual Fund.... I rode it until it bitcoined off the map.

You buy when people are selling and sell when...

What comes from the mind of man can be understood perfectly. All of the laws and regulations (that have the weight of law) are easy if you take the time to read them. Retention is another ball of wax.

Also, I know DHS isn't going to take the jump because of a blurb on a web-site.

Further, never try and time the market. The truth is: the people in the industry... that's all they do.
 

cdskier

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Agreed on nearly all points (especially those that tackle the root cause of the problem: there is no imperative for colleges to rein in tuition increases), but disagree on the merits of a one-time debt forgiveness.

Here's the problem...would it really be a "one-time debt forgiveness"? Once you do it once on a large scale, people will expect it again (and again). And you just get sucked into an endless cycle. You'd need to address the root cause first before you could do a one-time debt forgiveness and I really don't see that happening anytime too soon. And while I feel bad for people with massive student loan debt, I still think they do need to accept some of the responsibility for it. No one held a gun to their head and forced them to go to a school that required them to take out all that debt. Now I wouldn't be against something like large scale removal/reduction of high student loan interest rates somehow. But I do have an issue with paying off the principal for people.

All your other points though are excellent and I agree with.

Here's one more point about college to add...how many people genuinely know what they want to do when they graduate HS and pick the "right" major in college? Honestly if I could go back in time, I'd pick something different. But what interests me now that I would love to go back and be able to do is something I had absolutely zero exposure to at that younger age so would have never in a million years thought of going into that field.

I graduated HS in 89, did the CC thing for 2 years. Had a scholarship that paid for a good chunk of it. I think it was $1000 a semester. Best class I ever had was there, Marine Biology. Most of the class even showed up on a Saturday for an optional field trip.

Moved onto NJIT and the schorlarship rolled over to there. Probably covered a 3rd of the tuition. I lived at home, so that saved a boat load. My last undergrad semester I did something called the BS/MS program. Take 2 grad courses and it counts for both. That program also allowed you to work 10 a week for free tuition and another 10 for the same amount in a stipend. I think it was around $3500 a semester. That continued for grad school. Got off cheap I guess. I would not complain if my kids took a similar route.

For NJ residents, NJIT is still a pretty good value. Before any potential financial aid/scholarships you're looking at only 18K/year for tuition and fees. That's reasonable for a science/tech college.
 

KustyTheKlown

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ya, root causes (interest rates) is much more important than any one time forgiveness. student loans should also be dischargeable via bankruptcy. i have no interest in bankruptcy, but it should be an option for people seriously underwater.
 

drjeff

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It would be nice if the Federal Gov't got OUT of the student loan business.

No doubt about it, prior to them getting into the student loan business 30 or so years ago, college was much more reasonably priced than it it now. The once the Fed started into the loan business, unlike when private lenders, who often were much more realistic with how much loan money they would lend an applicant, the amount of money the Feds would make loans for started seeing an increased maximum, and the colleges knowing this, started raising their tutition rates much faster than they used to, since they knew the Federal Gov't would keep on loaning students more and more money, thus futher augmenting the annual revenues colleges could take in, and you get the massive increases in tuition you have seen.

The secondary factor, that certainly isn't immediately thought of, but does play into the mix, is the facilities on most campuses these days, are far more oppulent than they used to be, and all of the enhanced dorm facilities, dinng facilities, athletic facailites, etc, do have significant costs associated with them, and that also has added to the cost of things.

Heck, having just gone through the college admissions process with my oldest, and now going through it again this Summer with my youngest (he'll be a highschool senior in the Fall), what a modern college campus looks like today is far more than the often not that much different than the highscool like facilites I had when I was in college.

This Saturday I am taking my son to tour my alma mater, Rennsselaer Polytechnic Institute. I remember that when I started there in the Fall of 1989, the tuition had just broken through the 20k barrier. Now, for in incoming class this Fall, its now just over 57k. Is the vaue of that education really commensurate with the almost tripling of the costs in around 30 years? I know I will be impressed with the physical facilities on the campus as I was when I also toured my daughter there last Summer, howveer are some new glitzy buildings as well as an impressive looking athletic stadium and facilities that have been built since I graduated worth the costs to attend now?
 
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