Ski Resort Managers Rejoice!

[drjeff]

You do realize the debt doubled under our friend George Bush right? The last time the national debt decreased as a percentage of our national GDP was under Clinton. Then we went to war with Iraq, Afghanistan, and cut taxes to the wealthy and BOOM $10 trillion of debt. Think that should have happened?

I don't want to get into a debt discussion. I don't think it should be there either, but how would you propose paying it down if we have to lower taxes because we're taking too much money from hard working bankers on wall street instead of letting them buy land from here to Chicago to build private fiber optic cables?

Yes a lot of our debt comes from social security, but we also spend an ENORMOUS amount on our military. Do you want to completely axe both?

We have programs in place that millions rely on in this country. You'll never be able to eliminate those programs, at least in the next few decades.

This is the reality of our country today. As I said, if you don't like it, leave. I'm willing to pay more to try and get us back on track.

I never said anything about the federal government OWNING money. Where did you get that from? I said the federal government has a general income tax pool
I talked about taxes the whole time. Taxes are real, hate to break it to you.

All you did was complain and be inflammatory. Come back again with some facts and something substantive about what you would do differently and we can talk.

What do you want to do if you don't want to "take" any more money from hardworking American citizens of any tax bracket? Shut down the government? That worked out real well.

Our country is in trouble, and its as much one party's fault as the other and blame isn't going to get us anywhere. I want to know what you want try DO about it. Not listen to you nit pick my language on the government's supposed possession of money. Use your little financial brain and let's TALK not condescend, come on, you can do it, I believe.

Fair points. Multiple administrations have essentially doubled our cumulative national debt during their watches in the recent past. Multiple congresses, with both parties in control have passed some irresponsible budgets that have enabled the debt to increase. As for the Clinton factor and his reduction in the debt, lets not forget that the budgets that he signed into place that enabled those reduction were written and passed by a republican congress, so it was a bi partisan effort that lead to that GOOD result.

Taxes - our tax code has become a joke, basically a series of regulations imposed by lobbyists to favor a certain group over another. The reality is it can't be fixed. The reality is it should be scrapped and restarted from square one with something like a simple flat tax or a consumption based tax, and if done properly, it realistically could be done in a few pages of text, not a few million!! I am a proponent of EVERYONE paying at least something. If you're paying into the system, you're likely to feel more ownership to the system and as such will be paying more attention. Additionally, this talk of certain people paying their "fair share" and that number is over 50% HAS to stop - when the government is "taking" more from you than you, that you EARNED, you completely remove the incentive to work harder and earn more, the same incentive that DOES drive so many, and as a result very often leads to the expansion of the economy and as such increases in tax collections. Just because one person thinks that another is making more money than they need, or should have, doesn't mean that the person making that money feels the same way.

In the end, all a tax really is is the government taking money that you earned and then "spending" it in a way that they see fit. A tax increase is the government taking more of what you earn to spend in a way that they see fit. A tax cut is the government letting you keep more of what you earned, money that the government NEVER had in the 1st place. Taxes are a necessary "evil" and they can and have been used in the past, present and future for many good, beneficial things for the country. When taxes are being used, or threatened to be used as, a "weapon" that put one group of society against another, that is a HUGE issue. That is a situation that is becoming far too much of a reality today. That isn't a good thing

 

[Puck it]

Just a theory on what happens when you tax the shit out of people.

 

[BenedictGomez]

I just can't believe what folks are paying for real estate. It's certainly more of a lifestyle choice vs. an investment decision.

I've spent a lot of time pondering investor psychology, and human beings are generally terrible at predicting the future. Humans live in a world where what we immediately perceive forms a stasis that cannot be seen through. Roughly a year or so ago, if you told people that oil would be around $50 a barrel in less than a year, they'd have laughed you out of a room even if you provided logical educated support. So too, IMO, is it with the US housing market. I cannot TELL you how many times I've heard people say, "buy real estate, it always goes up over time" or "a home is the safest investment" etc..... Well, it generally has gone up over time, if your window is a bit less than one human lifetime, about 60 years, from post WWII until the crash. While that's a LONG run, it certainly doesn't mean it will continue to go up, which is a fact completely lost on most people due to their "stasis view" based on their own life experience. And I do agree with you, that US home prices are in 2015, are alarmingly disjoined from financial reality in many, if not most, markets. In some areas, home prices are BACK to pre-bubble prices. Madness.

You do realize the debt doubled under our friend George Bush right?

You do realize the capybara is the largest rodent on the planet right?

That's also a fact, though like your above comment, I have no idea how it fits into the discussion.

The country will deal with the national debt the same way that it always has. It will inflate the currency until it diminishes as a percentage of GDP. That is how we paid back the debt from World War II which was even higher.

This has somehow become a popular thing for people say, but it's easier said than done, not economically easy or painless. You don't just "inflate away (massive) debt" without taking on a LOT of pain. Lots. Of. Pain.

 

[BenedictGomez]

The financial problem the government isn't talking about is the student loan crisis.

This will be the next bailout.

Right now, EVERYONE, Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians, Independents, Phoenix Coyote fans, soundly oppose this idea. If you put it to a vote, it would lose massively, nearly 80% to 20%. But my prediction is that by the 2024 election Democrat politicians will begin to support the idea to harness the youth vote, and make citizen Democrats support it too. It will be easy with some self-righteous propaganda slogans, "The big Wall Street banks were bailed out, shouldn't we bail out our children?" Political child's play.

This is a dangerous sentiment to promote. Do you realize that the number of people who are renouncing US citizenship has been increasing steadily and, recently, exponentially? Are you aware that most of these individuals do so to avoid US taxes (like many US corporations) and that many have fundamental disagreements with government policies? Are you aware most are high income earners? Sure, the number is only in the thousands right now. Just wait. As more leave and those that remain are called on to pony up more taxes the trickle will become an exodus. I've heard some high and mighty comments to the effect "good riddance" to those who renounce. Good luck to those of us who will remain. Talk about choking the golden goose to death!

This entire paragraph is correct, and it isnt limited to nations, but to US states as well.

People and businesses are fleeing high tax states for low tax states. This is a great story that the media isn't telling.

In New Jersey, 2 out of every 3 moves are currently OUT of state. Sometimes it seems like my entire graduating high school class now lives in the Carolinas. Eastern PA has become a boomtown of former NJ residents who "hopped" over the river to avoid myriad taxes. Many, as you correctly noted, are high income earners. As these people flee, the "survivors" are asked to pay more.

 

[yeggous]

This will be the next bailout.

Right now, EVERYONE, Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians, Independents, Phoenix Coyote fans, soundly oppose this idea. If you put it to a vote, it would lose massively, nearly 80% to 20%. But my prediction is that by the 2024 election Democrat politicians will begin to support the idea to harness the youth vote, and make citizen Democrats support it too. It will be easy with some self-righteous propaganda slogans, "The big Wall Street banks were bailed out, shouldn't we bail out our children?" Political child's play.



This entire paragraph is correct, and it isnt limited to nations, but to US states as well.

People and businesses are fleeing high tax states for low tax states. This is a great story that the media isn't telling.

In New Jersey, 2 out of every 3 moves are currently OUT of state. Sometimes it seems like my entire graduating high school class now lives in the Carolinas. Eastern PA has become a boomtown of former NJ residents who "hopped" over the river to avoid myriad taxes. Many, as you correctly noted, are high income earners. As these people flee, the "survivors" are asked to pay more.

Half of the people I work with have fled New Jersey to Massachusetts. For them it had nothing to do with taxes and everything to do with New Jersey.

 

[Puck it]

Half of the people I work with have fled New Jersey to Massachusetts. For them it had nothing to do with taxes and everything to do with New Jersey.

Taxes in MA are way lower than NY and CA. When I moved here, everybody called it Taxachussetts, obviously they never lived in CA or NY.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Half of the people I work with have fled New Jersey to Massachusetts. For them it had nothing to do with taxes and everything to do with New Jersey.

The top 5 states NJ has lost wealth to (IRS data) are:

1) Florida 2) Pennsylvania 3) North Carolina 4) California 5) Virginia The only surprise on that list is California, though that may well have to do with the recent rebound in tech jobs.

EDIT:

And just for fun, the top 5 states Massachusetts is losing its' wealth to are:

1) Florida
2) New Hampshire
3) California
4) Maine
5) North Carolina


If you haven't been to the Carolina's in the last 10 years, you'll probably be shocked. New Jersey residents are fleeing to EVERYWHERE though, and there are a lot of us, so it's not a complete shock if you're seeing more of them.

 

[JimG.]

And I didn't say there's not a huge problem with our programs our income taxes help pay for, in fact, I said we're in trouble on that front. Yes we pay more than three times the second place military spender, but that doesn't mean our military is taking hits right now too.

My whole point is that we're in trouble and cutting taxes isn't going to do anything but make the problem a lot worse. I also feel that the federal government does a lot for this country and I have no problem giving them my taxes because I'm earning what I'm earning. I'll never understand the desire that once you reach the top you just want to hide in a corner with your money stacked around and not share it with anyone.

If you're one of the smartest kids in class, the teacher asks you to spend some extra time to tutor other kids and you do it because it's a good thing you do and it doesn't take that long. Same thing here, our income bracket has the means to give more. We're still the class of people seeing the biggest jumps in income post income tax, so why is there so much complaining? I view it as part of living in a community that you care about. I care about this country, I care about our community, and I don't want to leave everyone to the wolves

I've said before, I pay my taxes and rarely complain. I agree the higher income earners should pay more.

Problem is, many don't. Happy to pay my share but I do not care to pick up the slack for wealthy tax evaders and corporations.

 

[kartski]

Yes a lot of our debt comes from social security, but we also spend an ENORMOUS amount on our military. Do you want to completely axe both?

None of the Debt comes from Social Security it is paid for by Workers and Employers not Taxpayers. The Federal Gov't has been borrowing from SS to pay for Tax Cuts. The Govt owes SS about 2.6 Trillion at this point and has to pay it back but SS is not a cause of the Debt but a victim.

 

[Puck it]

I've said before, I pay my taxes and rarely complain. I agree the higher income earners should pay more.

Problem is, many don't. Happy to pay my share but I do not care to pick up the slack for wealthy tax evaders and corporations.

Agreed but when money is wasted like it is then I don't want to pay more. And in regards to evading taxes, if you submit a W2 with your taxes and that is the majority of your income then there is really no way to reduce that tax burden.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Taxes - our tax code has become a joke, basically a series of regulations imposed by lobbyists to favor a certain group over another. The reality is it can't be fixed. The reality is it should be scrapped and restarted from square one with something like a simple flat tax or a consumption based tax, and if done properly, it realistically could be done in a few pages of text, not a few million!! I am a proponent of EVERYONE paying at least something. If you're paying into the system, you're likely to feel more ownership to the system and as such will be paying more attention.

While the above is true, it will never happen unless you have a Republican House, a Republican Senate, and a Republican president.
The entire power structure of Democratic party politics relies on the US tax code, and who they can favor and give goodies to. While Republicans absolutely do abuse this system as well, it is not their life-blood and nowhere near as important to them politically.

The Federal Gov't has been borrowing from SS to pay for Tax Cuts. The Govt owes SS about 2.6 Trillion at this point and has to pay it back but SS is not a cause of the Debt but a victim.

Did you read that on Huffington Post or something? I mean, ignoring the fact that it conveniently ascribes 100% blame to Republican initiatives and is thus blatantly partisan, it makes absolutely no mathematical sense. Social Security (SS) is far more underfunded than simply a summation of any "tax cuts". The #1 reason SS is horse****** is that the program promises to pay out much more in actuarial benefits than the net contributions the program receives.

SS is without question the most financially destructive, wasteful, and economically ruinous program ever devised by the US government. The fact that so many Americans view SS as a "good thing", is empirically demonstrative of how ambivalent, detached from financial reality, and "dumb" many people are. The very basis of the SS program is, "You are too stupid to properly plan for your future, so big government is going to do that for you" - and fail at it miserably.

Agreed but when money is wasted like it is then I don't want to pay more. And in regards to evading taxes, if you submit a W2 with your taxes and that is the majority of your income then there is really no way to reduce that tax burden.

Yup. The problem isn't that government doesn't take enough of our money in taxes, the problem is the government spends too much.

 

[Tin]

Yup. The problem isn't that government doesn't take enough of our money in taxes, the problem is the government spends too much.

For once, my libtard self will agree with you and say they also don't spend it in the right places.

 

[Puck it]

For once, my libtard self will agree with you and say they also don't spend it in the right places.

. You know it is a disease!

 

[dlague]

I mean the top fifth of people paying 4/5s of taxes isn't a total travesty in my opinion. We have a gradient income tax. I'd like to see what percentage of the 80-90% earners pay of that income tax compared to the top 10% percent. There are people with $3 million salaries that should translate to more income tax than someone making $30,000 or 1% of that.

This massive income tax isn't hurting the top earners that much because since 1979 the top 20% of earners in the country have seen post income tax income rise by greater percentages than the remaining 80% with the top 1% of those earners seeing a 200% growth in income after they paid their taxes compared to the 20 to 80% earners seeing a 40% rise in income.

Income inequality in this country is rising despite all the uncle Sam benefits and high income tax on the top earners so I don't feel too bad about that tax statistic. If the top earners were seeing equal income rises to the rest of the country or were seeing less growth, then we'd have a discussion.

May not hurt top earners but it hits the upper middle class that are trying to break the 250K barrier.

 

[JimG.]

Agreed but when money is wasted like it is then I don't want to pay more. And in regards to evading taxes, if you submit a W2 with your taxes and that is the majority of your income then there is really no way to reduce that tax burden.

Agreed on all points. The evaders don't submit W2's or work in a cash only environment.

If we keep agreeing like this we might wind up singing "Kumbaya" together.

 

[drjeff]

None of the Debt comes from Social Security it is paid for by Workers and Employers not Taxpayers. The Federal Gov't has been borrowing from SS to pay for Tax Cuts. The Govt owes SS about 2.6 Trillion at this point and has to pay it back but SS is not a cause of the Debt but a victim.

This is a BIG pet peeve of mine when people talk about tax cuts, and how that statement isn't accurrate.

Bottom line, a tax cut "costs" the government nothing. Its ISN'T the government writing out a person or a corporation a check for $X, it is simply the government letting a person or company keep more of what they (the person or company) earned, money that the government NEVER had in the first place. The government makes it seem like they are doing the individual a huge favor when they pass a tax cut, when in reality all that they are doing is letting you keep more of what was yours, not theirs, in the first place.

The only time a tax cut might result in the government writing out a check is if it is in conjunction with some type of earned income tax credit where the end result is the person (or corporation) receiving money from the government above and beyond what they may (or in the case of some people/entities) may not have paid in the first place.

So when someone says that tax cuts "cost" the gov't $X for which they had to borrow $Y from someplace else and that's what added to the debt, what it actually is is that the gov't let you keep more of what was yours all along, but continued to spend like it was their's all along. It's just the government manipulating the wording to their advantage. Similar to when the government proposes a budget of say $4 Trillion, but then passes a budget of $3.5 Trillion (but only takes in $3 Trillion in tax revenue), they'll spin it as they cut $500 Billion from the budget, all the while they're still adding $500 Billion to the national debt - Washington Math and Washington wordsmithing at its finest

 

[Puck it]

Another scam by the government is the mortgage bailout. This really pisses me off. I pay my mortgage every month and never late. But someone can be late up to months and are allowed to stay in the house ad gets help to stay. That is f'ing wrong.

 

[Jully]

While the above is true, it will never happen unless you have a Republican House, a Republican Senate, and a Republican president.
The entire power structure of Democratic party politics relies on the US tax code, and who they can favor and give goodies to. While Republicans absolutely do abuse this system as well, it is not their life-blood and nowhere near as important to them politically.



Did you read that on Huffington Post or something? I mean, ignoring the fact that it conveniently ascribes 100% blame to Republican initiatives and is thus blatantly partisan, it makes absolutely no mathematical sense. Social Security (SS) is far more underfunded than simply a summation of any "tax cuts". The #1 reason SS is horse****** is that the program promises to pay out much more in actuarial benefits than the net contributions the program receives.

SS is without question the most financially destructive, wasteful, and economically ruinous program ever devised by the US government. The fact that so many Americans view SS as a "good thing", is empirically demonstrative of how ambivalent, detached from financial reality, and "dumb" many people are. The very basis of the SS program is, "You are too stupid to properly plan for your future, so big government is going to do that for you" - and fail at it miserably.



Yup. The problem isn't that government doesn't take enough of our money in taxes, the problem is the government spends too much.

Now hold up, I don't think that's quite fair to say. The reason I threw George Bush in there was because I knew you'd say something like this and that "liberals spend too much." In reality, both parties spend a lot and our tax code doesn't fit either bill right now. All of Bush's tax initiatives he put into place did not help much with the debt and 2008's recession happened on his watch under his taxes.

The Clinton administration and its success at decreasing the national debt as a function of GDP was a beautiful bipartisan measure in my opinion, I agree.

Back to your point about a fully Republican government being the only way to restructure our taxes: you do realize Bernie Sanders wants to completely redo our taxes too right? He's looking back to the Eisenhower administration's tax policy to shape his own! We don't need a republican president to redo our taxes, we just need a different president. Let's try to be a little more partisan next time BG.

I also would like to agree with you that SS is hilarious both in theory and in practice. Ever since I got my first paycheck I didn't want to see SS taken out. We've seen the problems coming for years and yet multiple presidents of both parties did nothing to stop it and now millions of elderly depend on it and it's going to screw millions more very soon.

And yes, the government spends too much in the wrong places. We're a very bloated country.

And Dlague: it can hurt a lot of people trying to break the 250k barrier, I agree. I initially brought this up, and apologize for sidetracking everything somewhat, to respond to Steamboat1 freaking out that the top 20% of earners pay 80% of income taxes. That, I don't have a problem with. The 250k is potentially a problem, the issue is that wherever you place the lower threshold for a "wealthy" tax hurts the people right at that threshold and those trying to break into the threshold

 

[Jully]

Another scam by the government is the mortgage bailout. This really pisses me off. I pay my mortgage every month and never late. But someone can be late up to months and are allowed to stay in the house ad gets help to stay. That is f'ing wrong.

Tell me about it. Bailouts suck for everyone except the people who screwed up really badly

 

[yeggous]

The top 5 states NJ has lost wealth to (IRS data) are:

1) Florida 2) Pennsylvania 3) North Carolina 4) California 5) Virginia The only surprise on that list is California, though that may well have to do with the recent rebound in tech jobs.

EDIT:

And just for fun, the top 5 states Massachusetts is losing its' wealth to are:

1) Florida
2) New Hampshire
3) California
4) Maine
5) North Carolina


If you haven't been to the Carolina's in the last 10 years, you'll probably be shocked. New Jersey residents are fleeing to EVERYWHERE though, and there are a lot of us, so it's not a complete shock if you're seeing more of them.

Neither of those state lists are surprising. Both lose retirees to Florida. Both lose a lot to neighboring states which is natural as people move locally across borders. North Carolina has been growing for decades. California (specifically the Bay Area) is booming.


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