Park City/Talisker-Vail Lawsuit

thetrailboss · Jul 11, 2014

I might be wrong here, but the PC golf course is really not at stake because it is not on the disputed land.

PCMR's only real leverage is the fact that it owns the base area, parking lots, water rights for the entire resort, and the disputed lifts and other fixtures on the disputed land. While Talisker can kill PCMR it can't do so without inflicting serious injury to itself. Hence why this is such a sticky and difficult situation.

steamboat1 · Jul 11, 2014

thetrailboss said:
I might be wrong here, but the PC golf course is really not at stake because it is not on the disputed land.

PCMR's only real leverage is the fact that it owns the base area, parking lots, water rights for the entire resort, and the disputed lifts and other fixtures on the disputed land. While Talisker can kill PCMR it can't do so without inflicting serious injury to itself. Hence why this is such a sticky and difficult situation.

Talisker has nothing to do with the suit anymore. Vail took over the suit when they signed the lease with Talisker. No matter what happens in the suit Talisker is sitting pretty with it's $25 million a year lease to Vail.The only thing Talisker has to lose at this point is money from the profit sharing agreement with Vail.

The golf course I'm referring to is the one being built at the Canyons. It's going to hard to keep it green without water.

thetrailboss · Jul 11, 2014

steamboat1 said:
Talisker has nothing to do with the suit anymore. Vail took over the suit when they signed the lease with Talisker. No matter what happens in the suit Talisker is sitting pretty with it's $25 million a year lease to Vail.The only thing Talisker has to lose at this point is money from the profit sharing agreement with Vail.

The golf course I'm referring to is the one being built at the Canyons. It's going to hard to keep it green without water.

True on the assignment to Vail.

As to the new golf course, I would have to presume that Canyons already had water in place for that course before its construction.

VTKilarney · Jul 11, 2014

PCMR's position gets weaker as time goes on. Yes, they own things that Vail needs. But... if they aren't making money from those things, their position gets weaker and weaker as they lose money.

Also, PCMR will burn every single bridge possible if they play their hand in a way that undermines the local economy. Their name will be mud across the whole region.

thetrailboss · Jul 11, 2014

VTKilarney said:
PCMR's position gets weaker as time goes on. Yes, they own things that Vail needs. But... if they aren't making money from those things, their position gets weaker and weaker as they lose money.

Also, PCMR will burn every single bridge possible if they play their hand in a way that undermines the local economy. Their name will be mud across the whole region.

True.

For POWDR this is an emotional thing. First, because PCMR was John's baby and first resort. Local legend is that PCMR is what made him get into the biz. The story involves a conversation one night between John and his Dad, Ian, as they were driving up to PCMR for a night race. Apparently, Ian said to John something to the effect of, "you've got to figure out what to do with your life" just as they were getting near PCMR. Shortly thereafter John began an "internship" with Nick Badami who owned and operated PCMR at the time (well, leased the land from United Park City Mines) and Nick apparently mentored him until John formed POWDR (presumably with some of Daddy's money) and took over PCMR.

It's also emotional because not renewing the lease was such a big "WTF?" moment for them and a real embarrassment.

As to the last point, they are already pissing a lot of folks off because of the dragging of feet. Businesses, hotels, and second homeowners at the base are all :roll: about the prospect of "Woodward Park City" that just launched this website. It essentially is the base area of PCMR that POWDR owns.

The funniest part of the site, at least for me, was that the comments page anti-spam image was:

No joke! :lol:

AdironRider · Jul 11, 2014

VTKilarney said:
PCMR's position gets weaker as time goes on. Yes, they own things that Vail needs. But... if they aren't making money from those things, their position gets weaker and weaker as they lose money.

Also, PCMR will burn every single bridge possible if they play their hand in a way that undermines the local economy. Their name will be mud across the whole region.

Its easy for East Coast folks to think this way, but those water rights are huge out west. PCMR (or Vail with the takeover) cannot operate that terrain most years without it. With each passing year those water rights increase in value immensely.

In Cali, water is going for mid 2k an acre foot on a lease. Guys are making millions every year just leasing it out. Utah is not far behind.

The added terrain is worth nothing without water to make snow on it, this is not LCC or BCC, and the snow is just not there like most assume.

Whiskeys for drinking, waters for fighting.

VTKilarney · Jul 11, 2014

I know the water rights are worth a lot. But is there a market for them other than VAIL? In other words, are can the be sold to anyone or are the rights specific to the mountain?

Assuming the rights are specific to the mountain, Is PCMR really going to want to be seen as the reason the ski area languishes - when they lost in court but refused to sell the water rights for a fair offer? If VAIL really does make a fair offer, PCMR has no way to win here. All they have is a scorched earth strategy at that point.

VTKilarney · Jul 11, 2014

Frankly, I think it's a good thing for VAIL that PCMR has come out with their Woodward Park City plan. Absolutely nobody is going to think that PCMR has a better offering than VAIL at this point. If the town was smart, there would be a vocal boycott movement so that PCMR rips the bandaid off.

thetrailboss · Jul 11, 2014

VTKilarney said:
Frankly, I think it's a good thing for VAIL that PCMR has come out with their Woodward Park City plan. Absolutely nobody is going to think that PCMR has a better offering than VAIL at this point. If the town was smart, there would be a vocal boycott movement so that PCMR rips the bandaid off.

Trust me...many in town are really pissed with POWDR right now. Just click on the Park Record and read some of the editorials/letters.

steamboat1 · Jul 12, 2014

VTKilarney said:
PCMR's position gets weaker as time goes on. Yes, they own things that Vail needs. But... if they aren't making money from those things, their position gets weaker and weaker as they lose money.

Also, PCMR will burn every single bridge possible if they play their hand in a way that undermines the local economy. Their name will be mud across the whole region.

Vails position gets weaker & weaker as they get no income from PCMR. $25 million a year for a lease for the Canyons ain't going to cut it. In fact even if Vail gets PCMR it ain't going to cut it. Vail way overpaid. Considering that signing the lease increased their debt by 35% isn't anything to sneeze at.

Powdr on the other hand isn't paying anything except local taxes, they own the property, have for years.

If anyone is ruining the local economy it's Vail/Talisker. They started this crap, not Powdr.

thetrailboss · Jul 12, 2014

steamboat1 said:
Vails position gets weaker & weaker as they get no income from PCMR. $25 million a year for a lease for the Canyons ain't going to cut it. In fact even if Vail gets PCMR it ain't going to cut it. Vail way overpaid. Considering that signing the lease increased their debt by 35% isn't anything to sneeze at.

Powdr on the other hand isn't paying anything except local taxes, they own the property, have for years.

If anyone is ruining the local economy it's Vail/Talisker. They started this crap, not Powdr.

POWDR sued Talisker (later Vail).

Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone

VTKilarney · Jul 12, 2014

I've been wondering if Vail's $25 million per year has some contingencies. My guess is that it does.

DoublePlanker · Jul 12, 2014

Vail is doing fine. The MTN stock is rising during this time. Apparently Wall Street thinks this situation is at least neutral for vail.

Vail is NOT getting hurt by this.

AdironRider · Jul 12, 2014

DoublePlanker said:
Vail is doing fine. The MTN stock is rising during this time. Apparently Wall Street thinks this situation is at least neutral for vail.

Vail is NOT getting hurt by this.

There is nothing new currently to affect the stock price regarding this specific situation. There will be in about a month if Vail doesnt get access to the base, then the stock tanks.

Could be a nice short play.

mbedle · Jul 22, 2014

Interesting and I assume good news.

http://www.parkrecord.com/park_city...pones-woodward-park-city-talks-details-evolve

This is also interesting, wasn't aware they were looking to cash in on a town lift.

http://ski.curbed.com/archives/2014/03/utah-just-keeps-making-waves.php

thetrailboss · Jul 29, 2014

Looks like Vail will allow PCMR to operate this season assuming that POWDR puts up a security bond....

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/58233221-78/park-ski-talisker-pcmr.html.csp

thetrailboss · Jul 30, 2014

Another article on the situation right now:

http://www.saminfo.com/news/uncertainty-over-coming-season-worries-park-city-community

marcski · Jul 30, 2014

Has it ever been made public how much more PCMR has been paying Talisker since the lease expired a few years ago? I assume they've been paying more than their sweet 150k/year deal that was in the lease.

thetrailboss · Jul 30, 2014

marcski said:
Has it ever been made public how much more PCMR has been paying Talisker since the lease expired a few years ago? I assume they've been paying more than their sweet 150k/year deal that was in the lease.

I think they stopped paying the $150k when the suit was initiated. I might be wrong.

marcski · Jul 30, 2014

thetrailboss said:
I think they stopped paying the $150k when the suit was initiated. I might be wrong.

Yes, hence my question...How much have they been spending the last few years since the lease expired?

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