Holy Snow Guns

Tooth · May 22, 2012

http://www.sugarloaf.com/Corporate/Media/PressReleases/Present/2012/EfficiencyMaine.html

:fangun:

skiahman · May 22, 2012

I phucken love the Loaf!!

deadheadskier · May 23, 2012

I'm sure this will make a huge difference. I don't even ski Loon and I still found myself checking their snow report early season seeing how fast they opened terrain and then again late season to see them having more terrain open than just about everywhere in early April.

Can't wait to get back there next season.

x10003q · May 23, 2012

Gore added 130 of these HKDs last year to the lower elevations of the mountain. In a crap year they helped Gore open more terrain than they would have with the older guns they replaced.

NYSKI Blog article about the HKDs from last summer

speden · May 23, 2012

That's good news for the Loaf.

The press release doesn't say if they are installing any automation systems with the new guns or if they will be operated manually.

I was reading an article that automation with weather sensors and computer controlled valves reduces energy use as much as high efficiency guns. The automation systems can make snow during short temperature windows and shut off as soon as the window closes. If you use people to plod around the trails connecting hoses and turning on valves in the middle of the night, you miss windows and waste tons of energy.

vcunning · May 23, 2012

From reading the article, it sounds like it doesn't add more snowmaking capacity (not that you bums at the Loaf need it), but makes it much more efficient. Up to 90%! I don't know what % of the budget electricity and compressors make up, but that has to be a huge financial win for the loaf, especially with the grant they received.

Glad to see they were on top of this. Still one of my all-time favorite mountains (although I still prefer the old Bullwinkles in April, many, many years ago)

bigbob · May 23, 2012

If air is the limiting factor of your snow making plant, you can run more guns at once. I do not know if these guns produce more acre feet of snow with x gallons of water.Air is the more expensive component of snow making.

drjeff · May 23, 2012

bigbob said:
If air is the limiting factor of your snow making plant, you can run more guns at once. I do not know if these guns produce more acre feet of snow with x gallons of water.Air is the more expensive component of snow making.

At some point with modern low E guns, water can almost become the limiting agent too. If you've got a gun that uses 1/4th the air that a "traditional gun" uses, then obviously one can run more guns, as long as they can pump enough water to supply all that excess air those low E guns. Not so much an issue in warmer, more humid conditions, but if you get some cold, dry air with a nice low wet bulb when hardly any air is needed, then if you've got a system that can pump say 10,000 gallons of water a minute, that could easily be the limiting factor in the snowmaking equation. The reality is that even more efficient snowmaking is still expensive, and with the increases in modern technology, the fine folks that make and groom the snow, and the folks that keep track of how much it costs to make and groom the snow have a much better handle on both how much snow they'll typically need to meet their operations target and also when it's the most efficient time to make snow. This is one of the reasons why in a typical year nowadays, you'll see many ski areas "finish" making snow for the season at an earlier and earlier date than in years past, and very often having made more acre feet of snow in less time because they simply have better "tools" and a better grasp of the cost/efficiency ratio than ever before. Win-win situation for sure

vcunning · May 23, 2012

drjeff said:
At some point with modern low E guns, water can almost become the limiting agent too. If you've got a gun that uses 1/4th the air that a "traditional gun" uses, then obviously one can run more guns, as long as they can pump enough water to supply all that excess air those low E guns. Not so much an issue in warmer, more humid conditions, but if you get some cold, dry air with a nice low wet bulb when hardly any air is needed, then if you've got a system that can pump say 10,000 gallons of water a minute, that could easily be the limiting factor in the snowmaking equation. The reality is that even more efficient snowmaking is still expensive, and with the increases in modern technology, the fine folks that make and groom the snow, and the folks that keep track of how much it costs to make and groom the snow have a much better handle on both how much snow they'll typically need to meet their operations target and also when it's the most efficient time to make snow. This is one of the reasons why in a typical year nowadays, you'll see many ski areas "finish" making snow for the season at an earlier and earlier date than in years past, and very often having made more acre feet of snow in less time because they simply have better "tools" and a better grasp of the cost/efficiency ratio than ever before. Win-win situation for sure

You're such a snow-making nerd. We need to get together for beers soon. This off-season is very anti-social!

drjeff · May 23, 2012

vcunning said:
You're such a snow-making nerd. We need to get together for beers soon. This off-season is very anti-social!

Snowmaking nerd - check

Need to get together for beers soon - CHECK!! :beer:

Newpylong · May 24, 2012

They really need to install them up on trails like White Nitro and Upper Gondola Line. Last time I was there the guns were at least 20 years old (they are the old mini tower mounted variety, rusted to sh!t).

Highway Star · May 24, 2012

FYI - These are the snowguns installed on Outer Limits at Killington last year. You know, the ones that have exceptionally poor performance in wind, and no throw.

Good luck with that, these things are basicly complete garbage.

drjeff · May 24, 2012

Highway Star said:
FYI - These are the snowguns installed on Outer Limits at Killington last year. You know, the ones that have exceptionally poor performance in wind, and no throw.

Good luck with that, these things are basicly complete garbage.

I kind of had this basic thought too.

If they're to be installed mainly on trails that are say 50 - 75 feet wide, no problems with the limited throw they have shown to have. If you're talking a trail that 150+ feet wide, then you're going to end up spending a bunch more in diesel (even the Loaf's promoted Bio Diesel) to push that snow across the trail to get good edge to edge coverage.

In the world of air/water guns, this seems to be one of the major differences aside from the amount of air used, how close the whale of snow produced is to the gun in a low e gun vs. an "old school air hog" gun

The end product though is still pretty darn good

Highway Star · May 24, 2012

drjeff said:
I kind of had this basic thought too.

If they're to be installed mainly on trails that are say 50 - 75 feet wide, no problems with the limited throw they have shown to have. If you're talking a trail that 150+ feet wide, then you're going to end up spending a bunch more in diesel (even the Loaf's promoted Bio Diesel) to push that snow across the trail to get good edge to edge coverage.

In the world of air/water guns, this seems to be one of the major differences aside from the amount of air used, how close the whale of snow produced is to the gun in a low e gun vs. an "old school air hog" gun

The end product though is still pretty darn good

OL last year had some of the worst conditions I'd ever seen. Much of that has to do with the snowguns.

If you want to make snow in the woods, these are the perfect snowguns for it. :grin:

steamboat1 · May 24, 2012

Highway Star said:
FYI - These are the snowguns installed on Outer Limits at Killington last year. You know, the ones that have exceptionally poor performance in wind, and no throw.

Good luck with that, these things are basicly complete garbage.

Yeah Sugarloaf isn't exactly noted for being protected from the wind. Ol only had about 1/3 of the width of the trail covered because of the low-e guns they installed last year.

deadheadskier · May 24, 2012

Highway Star said:
FYI - These are the snowguns installed on Outer Limits at Killington last year. You know, the ones that have exceptionally poor performance in wind, and no throw.

Good luck with that, these things are basicly complete garbage.

Those "garbage" snow guns enabled Loon to open terrain as quick as anyone at the start of last season. Those "garbage" snow guns also enabled Loon to have vastly more open terrain than Killington at the end of the season.

I'm not suggesting they're great; truthfully I know jack shit about snowmaking technology. However, with what Loon put out last season, it's pretty clear that these kind of guns can be employed very effectively.

Highway Star · May 24, 2012

deadheadskier said:
Those "garbage" snow guns enabled Loon to open terrain as quick as anyone at the start of last season. Those "garbage" snow guns also enabled Loon to have vastly more open terrain than Killington at the end of the season.

I'm not suggesting they're great; truthfully I know jack shit about snowmaking technology. However, with what Loon put out last season, it's pretty clear that these kind of guns can be employed very effectively.

Well good for them. Doesn't change the fact that Loon is one of the lamest ski areas in the northeast.

Real mountains need real snowguns. These are not real snowguns.

jimmywilson69 · May 24, 2012

I am pretty sure they are real. I saw them in action and they do have absolutely zero through. The snow quality was very nice, but it doesn't make it very far from the gun.

Highway Star · May 24, 2012

jimmywilson69 said:
I am pretty sure they are real. I saw them in action and they do have absolutely zero through. The snow quality was very nice, but it doesn't make it very far from the gun.

They are glorified water mister.

jimmywilson69 · May 24, 2012

I won't argue with that sentiment. You can tell they are using less air, because they are quiet, but the lack of throw was almost unbelievable.

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