Killington will Open Before Sunday River This Season

cannonist said:

The only reason killington opened first last year was because SR allowed it. It was a respectful gesture after hurricane Irene. It wont happen again.

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skiersleft said:

It opened before SR because they are in a better position than SR to open early and stay open. SR can't open earlier than K and stay open because K's elevation advantage is too much for SR to counteract. So, on a normal year, K will have a better window for snowmaking than SR now that K has the stairway. That's a fact.

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Sorry skiersleft, but your version is revisionist history. Cannonist got the facts right. They let Killington merely a few minutes before. It had nothing to do with what you had said. Now Killington used to be able to open because of their set-up, but not so much anymore. Yes they have the staircase, etc., but that is a recent phenomenon when considering that ASC took out the Summit Double and replaced it with K-1 several years ago and, consequently, ended early skiing.

And regarding the point about SR "closing after it opens," or the argument that "because they are only open weekends it doesn't count," seems to me to be quibbling over minutia. In fact, I recall that Killington of both the later years of ASC and the current management used the "we are only going to open when we can stay open everyday" argument to justify opening much later than other folks. The bottom line is that folks want to be able to ski as soon as they can and over the past few years Boyne/SR have been going after it.

skiersleft said:

My point exactly. They open and then close right after they open.

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Not sure if you are a mid week skier, a K homer hell bent on titles, or you are simply in the small minority of (coincidently mostly K skiers) that cares more about "first to operate 7 days a week" than "first to open". Hey, whatever floats your boat. By your logic though, places like Mt Abram and Magic that only operate certain days of the week, never open for the season!

snowmonster said:

QFT.

However, why wait a month? Any Sunday River skier worth his salt know that, after Columbus Day, it's game on. Remember October 15, 2009!

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Oh I remember, I was there, and I would be again! Just trying to keep my expectations in check.

^ Attaboy!

And as for the raging "first to open" debate, I remember one year when a case of beer made its way from central Vermont to western Maine. It was accompanied by all sorts of statements regarding the quality of the snow and customer expectations, blabbity-blah-blah. Whatever. All that mattered was we were carving that afternoon and that beer tasted good.

thetrailboss said:

Sorry skiersleft, but your version is revisionist history. Cannonist got the facts right. They let Killington merely a few minutes before. It had nothing to do with what you had said. Now Killington used to be able to open because of their set-up, but not so much anymore. Yes they have the staircase, etc., but that is a recent phenomenon when considering that ASC took out the Summit Double and replaced it with K-1 several years ago and, consequently, ended early skiing.

And regarding the point about SR "closing after it opens," or the argument that "because they are only open weekends it doesn't count," seems to me to be quibbling over minutia. In fact, I recall that Killington of both the later years of ASC and the current management used the "we are only going to open when we can stay open everyday" argument to justify opening much later than other folks. The bottom line is that folks want to be able to ski as soon as they can and over the past few years Boyne/SR have been going after it.

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1. Killington's setup today (and since the stairway) is superior to SR's. No one debates this, so I hope you don't. The stairway gives Killington an evident advantage over SR. And that's why they can now easily beat SR if they are so inclined.

2. Assuming both open the same day (as they did last year...although Killington did open earlier), it is obviously better to open and stay open a la K than to open and close a la SR. This is simply not debatable. And last year K opened and stayed open.

3. K will do the same this year. Open first. And then stay open. Stairway is a game changer. SR days as king of fall are numbered.

4. SR paints the trails early season. That's why they have to close after they open. If they had a solid base, they would stay open.

5. The only real threat to K this year is Woodbury, as TT431 pointed out.

Riverskier said:

A few things:

1) Cannonist is right about last year. They opened on the same day. When K announced they would open at 10:00, SR announced they would open at 10:01. It was a respectful gesture after Irene. That day SR actually started loading the lift at their usual opening time of 8:00, but the "official" opening time was 10:01. It doesn't matter anyway, the same day is tie.

2) SR does not paint the trails. They put down a good base on T2 and in my experince rock skis aren't required.

3) SR does not close right after they open. They utilize a weekends only operating schedule early season. It makes sense from a business perspective, and in my experience, most SR regulars (myself included) don't care. Sure, some mid week passholders complain, but most people ski weekends anyway, and I don't know too many people who want to burn vacation days to ski one trail in October.

4) You are correct that K has a huge elevation advantage (about 1500 feet) and could win a race to open 9 times out of 10. I am not sure anybody would really argue that point. That said, SR skiers can sit back and know that as soon as there is an 18 hour window (this happened around 10/12 back in 2009) of below freezing temps that SR will fire up the guns and open. I think most people would agree that the jury is still out on how aggressive K is willing to be.

5) Personally I don't care who opens first. I am just excited to know that based on the last few years, I will likely be skiing at SR in a month!

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There is no homer bias in this at all.

SR has never opened with a similar quality product to K. Never. Ive skied them both on opening weekends multiple times.

Look, its cool SR does what they do, and it keeps their clientel happy, which is the most important thing. This is great for skiers as a whole.

You say it doesnt matter when they opened because of Irene, but you write a whole paragraph about how technically they were first.

They do just put a smattering on a half a trail, and it shows. Numerous posters here have commented on this fact. Furthermore, Killington to open to their stairway has to blow many times over the amount of available terrain T2 opens with.

The jury is only out with the types of Highway Star. Killington has consistently had the longest season in the East for years now (days open total). To say they haven't been agressive is just not true.

AdironRider said:

There is no homer bias in this at all.

SR has never opened with a similar quality product to K. Never. Ive skied them both on opening weekends multiple times.

Look, its cool SR does what they do, and it keeps their clientel happy, which is the most important thing. This is great for skiers as a whole.

You say it doesnt matter when they opened because of Irene, but you write a whole paragraph about how technically they were first.

They do just put a smattering on a half a trail, and it shows. Numerous posters here have commented on this fact. Furthermore, Killington to open to their stairway has to blow many times over the amount of available terrain T2 opens with.

The jury is only out with the types of Highway Star. Killington has consistently had the longest season in the East for years now (days open total). To say they haven't been agressive is just not true.

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+1

Gilligan said:

+1

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+243

AdironRider said:

There is no homer bias in this at all.

SR has never opened with a similar quality product to K. Never. Ive skied them both on opening weekends multiple times.

Look, its cool SR does what they do, and it keeps their clientel happy, which is the most important thing. This is great for skiers as a whole.

You say it doesnt matter when they opened because of Irene, but you write a whole paragraph about how technically they were first.

They do just put a smattering on a half a trail, and it shows. Numerous posters here have commented on this fact. Furthermore, Killington to open to their stairway has to blow many times over the amount of available terrain T2 opens with.

The jury is only out with the types of Highway Star. Killington has consistently had the longest season in the East for years now (days open total). To say they haven't been agressive is just not true.

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Actually, there is no bias in my post. I haven't skied K on opening weekend, but based on pictures they do appear to offer a better product on opening weekend, so no argument there. I only addressed the Irene thing, because SL said they opened earlier because they are in "better position", which is BS. I don't agree that they just put a smattering on half a trail. I have found the base to be pretty good early season, and I have been there every October weekend they have been open the past 5 years. That is obviously just an opinion, and others can certainly disagree, but it is not based on homerism; rather my actual experience. More snow to open at K, no disagreement. I also don't disagree that they have had the longest season in terms of total days.

My only real points are 1) Sunday River will open as soon as they possibly can. That is nice to know as a jonesin SR skier. K has yet to prove that committment. 2) I ski 90% of the time on weekends, 100% early season. Therefore I don't give a crap how many days SR is open, I care how many weekends. I would trade one extra weekend day in October for 10 mid week days in November. I have found that MOST people agree with that sentiment, but it is just an opinion.

i just can't wait to ski

Smellytele said:

Both areas are soul less so who cares?

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+1

I have not made opening day at k in over 5 years. I can't comment on what I have not seen, nor can I say what the conditions are.
My point, I have made opening day, well the first full day for the last 5 years at Sunday River. .... Yes its a partial trail, but to call in inferior conditions really can only be said by those who skied it. Not many saying that it was bad... who have actually been there. Was it mid winter, no was it fun. I think I had fun. Cracks me up the only people worried about the closing are the ones not making turns there. Competition is good for us all. We have Oct turns again. 5 years ago I never thought they would be back again.

Mountain Creek will beat them all!

In NY last year Platty was the first to open.

Yep, forgot that. Maybe they'll go for the gold this year!

Scotty said:

In NY last year Platty was the first to open.

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Yep, first to open and first to close. Just like Sunday River.

Riverskier said:

By your logic though, places like Mt Abram and Magic that only operate certain days of the week, never open for the season!

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never mind other areas, by that same logic, 20% of Killington's terrain never opens for the season. i.e. Pico

And regarding who puts out the better early season product? Early season conditions are so dependent on weather that I don't really think quantifiable statements can be made on the quality of the early season product. Sunday River and Killington are pretty much where I ski in sometimes October (2009) through November and into early December. I've had great days and crappy days at both.

skiersleft said:

1. Killington's setup today (and since the stairway) is superior to SR's. No one debates this, so I hope you don't. The stairway gives Killington an evident advantage over SR. And that's why they can now easily beat SR if they are so inclined.

2. Assuming both open the same day (as they did last year...although Killington did open earlier), it is obviously better to open and stay open a la K than to open and close a la SR. This is simply not debatable. And last year K opened and stayed open.

3. K will do the same this year. Open first. And then stay open. Stairway is a game changer. SR days as king of fall are numbered.

4. SR paints the trails early season. That's why they have to close after they open. If they had a solid base, they would stay open.

5. The only real threat to K this year is Woodbury, as TT431 pointed out.

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You sound like you just stepped off of a time machine from the Killington of 1990 or so. Of course Killington has a higher elevation. Of course Pres set it up initially for a long season. Of course that was the Killington brand. And, as you said, with the "stair case" they can have a long season if they want to. From what we have seen overall, they will do it if the weather and such mean that it is a good business decision. This is much different than in the past. And it is not as good as it used to be with the Summit Double. Best set-up probably for early and late season skiing though? Sugarbush North (Mount Ellen) but alas that is not an early season place anymore.

As to the claim that SR paints the trails, they both do. I've skied very thin conditions at both places early season. I disagree though that SR closes because of thin base...it is because of no demand. And FWIW Upper T2 usually has a good base on it...as does North Ridge/Glades...it is the bottom that is the problem.

And I think that your "SR days as king of fall are numbered" line is laughable because Killington had that title for many, many years until they lost it and they've never really regained it. SR always was the underdog, even back when. The fact that there is a debate just shows how far it has fallen. Killington was the place for many years. Sunday River, Sugarbush, and even Waterville Valley chased them and tried to give them a fight, but in the end Killington beat itself. Today it is just a different brand. Nothing wrong with it, but it is the truth.

And glad you like Killington. Keep the threads coming because it passes the time until skiing comes.

Another interesting fact about last year's tie to open is that K opened only after receiving a foot of snow and then turning on the guns on top of the natural. SR didn't receive that benefit but still got open. Even though SR has a lower elevation, they also have the fire power and the will to blow just enough to open if they have a full day of snow making. K wants more time to make a better product. T2 is never edge to edge first day. But that is actually preferable by me, it makes skier's right have a more natural and wild feel to it (bumps, flora, undulations, not groomed, etc). It is a different philosophy. SR will always have the edge despite the lower elevation because of its approach. I'm cool with that because they also charge half as much as K for essentially the same product with a smaller crowd (you just have to put up with the up/download issue -- i.e. get there very early or very late).

In regards to the value, I think Killington must have realized they were losing some early season business to SR due to their higher price. I don't recall them offering the twofer deal until prior to the past couple of seasons. Now it's pretty easy to ski K for $30 through early December.