Aspen / KSL acquired Mammoth Resorts

BenedictGomez · Aug 23, 2017

Smellytele said:
While Stowe is a real town Tremblant is a fabricated town like Vail. Also Stowe maybe a "walking town" but it is pretty stretched out and although I don't go there often I still drive in between places. Walking towns are more like Breckenridge and Lake Placid.

All of those are easily walkable, except Stowe. Stowe is extremely spread out.

dlague said:
In Vermont, there are the Jay Peak Burke combo but that has to wait until the whole mess is settled. Then there is Smuggs but that does not look like it will go anywhere but that would work well for Vail, beyond those the others are accounted for by PWDER, EPR Properties/Triple Peaks, Peak Resports, Vail, and KSL.

Unfortunately, I disagree. Hopefully I'm wrong.

tumbler · Aug 23, 2017

It will be intersting to see how these large companies play out. They can only get so big before the losses become too large and start selling. Tough business to make money in. It will be good short term for infrastructure improvements but history seems to prove that the ski industry is not one for large companies.

mbedle · Aug 23, 2017

How many large multi resort companies have go out of business? I can honestly only think of one.

DoublePlanker · Aug 23, 2017

Vail is a publicly traded company. It looks like they had $282 million in operating income and $150 million in net income for 2016 (7-31-2016.) I think they will be ok.

dlague · Aug 23, 2017

DoublePlanker said:
Vail is a publicly traded company. It looks like they had $282 million in operating income and $150 million in net income for 2016 (7-31-2016.) I think they will be ok.

I agree - with season pass sales already 10% ahead of last year where they sold 650,000 season passes, they are well on their way. What I thought was interesting is that they still had about 85 million in lift ticket sales above the season pass sales.

Smellytele · Aug 23, 2017

dlague said:
I agree - with season pass sales already 10% ahead of last year where they sold 650,000 season passes, they are well on their way. What I thought was interesting is that they still had about 85 million in lift ticket sales above the season pass sales.

More season passes than dailies. 650k vs ~515k($165 per ticket)

chuckstah · Aug 23, 2017

Smellytele said:
More season passes than dailies. 650k vs ~515k($165 per ticket)

But many tickets, advance purchase, fringe season, multi day etc were purchased much cheaper than $165. Likely a majority.

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Tin Woodsman · Aug 24, 2017

DoublePlanker said:
Vail is a publicly traded company. It looks like they had $282 million in operating income and $150 million in net income for 2016 (7-31-2016.) I think they will be ok.

Those numbers are true and accurate, but one cannot conclude they are OK just by looking at them alone. If it took $5B in debt to generate that net income and op cash flow (which doesn't include interest payments), then Vail would be in a dire state indeed. That's not the case here - they will be OK - but it's not b/c they had $150M in net income.

dlague · Aug 24, 2017

chuckstah said:
But many tickets, advance purchase, fringe season, multi day etc were purchased much cheaper than $165. Likely a majority.

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plus childrens tickets

dlague · Aug 24, 2017

Tin Woodsman said:
Those numbers are true and accurate, but one cannot conclude they are OK just by looking at them alone. If it took $5B in debt to generate that net income and op cash flow (which doesn't include interest payments), then Vail would be in a dire state indeed. That's not the case here - they will be OK - but it's not b/c they had $150M in net income.

In this case gross revenues were $1,601,286 so net income was over 9%.

thetrailboss · Aug 25, 2017

mbedle said:
How many large multi resort companies have go out of business? I can honestly only think of one.

ASC
Intrawest had some SERIOUS financial issues
Booth Creek is all but gone

Jully · Aug 25, 2017

thetrailboss said:
ASC
Intrawest had some SERIOUS financial issues
Booth Creek is all but gone

Serious financial issues, yes, but out of business forever?? Just ASC. Intrawest wasn't rapidly sinking and wasn't sold in a firesale. Same with Booth Creek. They had their heyday and also had their issues, but they endured.

dlague · Aug 25, 2017

Jully said:
Serious financial issues, yes, but out of business forever?? Just ASC. Intrawest wasn't rapidly sinking and wasn't sold in a firesale. Same with Booth Creek. They had their heyday and also had their issues, but they endured.

Agreed, Was about to respond and saw your post!

thetrailboss · Aug 25, 2017

Jully said:
Serious financial issues, yes, but out of business forever?? Just ASC. Intrawest wasn't rapidly sinking and wasn't sold in a firesale. Same with Booth Creek. They had their heyday and also had their issues, but they endured.

Endured, sure. Booth Creek went from several resorts down to one or two. In fact, it doesn't even own Grand Targhee. Gilett bought it for himself and his family from BC. BC is barely a shadow of its former self.

Intrawest was in serious financial trouble and got an injection of capital, but again, it also is much smaller after selling Whistler to a rival.

mbedle · Aug 25, 2017

The purpose of the comment was some people seem to have a doom and gloom outlook on single companies owning multiple resorts. ASC seems to be the only previous multi-resort owner that crashed and burned. I tend to look at it as a safe guard against a highly variable business. For example, if a standalone resort in one section of the US goes though 2 bad seasons, that may be enough to toss the towel in. With the multiple resort owners, they should be able to buffer against that if one or two of their resorts suffer a couple of bad seasons.

benski · Aug 25, 2017

mbedle said:
The purpose of the comment was some people seem to have a doom and gloom outlook on single companies owning multiple resorts. ASC seems to be the only previous multi-resort owner that crashed and burned. I tend to look at it as a safe guard against a highly variable business. For example, if a standalone resort in one section of the US goes though 2 bad seasons, that may be enough to toss the towel in. With the multiple resort owners, they should be able to buffer against that if one or two of their resorts suffer a couple of bad seasons.

I know there are snow insurance policies. Mountain Creek had one where they got some money if there were not enough days where they could make snow.

thetrailboss · Aug 26, 2017

mbedle said:
The purpose of the comment was some people seem to have a doom and gloom outlook on single companies owning multiple resorts. ASC seems to be the only previous multi-resort owner that crashed and burned. I tend to look at it as a safe guard against a highly variable business. For example, if a standalone resort in one section of the US goes though 2 bad seasons, that may be enough to toss the towel in. With the multiple resort owners, they should be able to buffer against that if one or two of their resorts suffer a couple of bad seasons.

That was the idea with ASC. Until winter was bad on both coasts and the market crashed.

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mbedle · Aug 27, 2017

Its definitely the idea with Vail, they specifically called it out with the purchase of Whistler.

slatham · Aug 27, 2017

thetrailboss said:
That was the idea with ASC. Until winter was bad on both coasts and the market crashed.

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I think there was a lot of imprudent, debt fueled expansion in ASC's formula for failure......

Jully · Aug 27, 2017

slatham said:
I think there was a lot of imprudent, debt fueled expansion in ASC's formula for failure......

Absolutely. Real estate and direct ski area expansion

Aspen / KSL acquired Mammoth Resorts

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