This time it's London...

JimG. · Jul 8, 2005

dmc said:
I hate to say this... But with Sadam at least they had water, electricity and transportation... For some people - thats all they need to raise their kids and live their lives..

I'm going to show Claudia this quote...she has said exactly this many times.

dmc · Jul 8, 2005

ChileMass said:
The question is - when are we justified in standing up for democracy? At what point do we take the lead in defending the most successful type of government in history? Everyone want freedom and democracy, and this isn't just a re-hash of the old line "inside every gook is an American trying to get out".

Thats a pretty cocky statement..
I'm not sure our version of democracy is for everyone.. I agreed it's awesome.. But...
You know that Iraq will imediatly go into a civil war as soon as we leave..
It's going to be divided into three countries and don't see any problem with that...

I just don't know if democracy will work for every person in the world... Especially trabla based societies...

dmc · Jul 8, 2005

SkiDog said:
the NORTH of Iraq is beginning to THRIVE..

It was thriving before we went into Iraq... We protected the Kurds - they esectially had their own country free from Sadams rule - us "liberating" Iraq was THE worst thing we could have done to them..

Now they are at the mercy of the stronger groups uin the country..

smitty77 · Jul 8, 2005

dmc said:
As well as making the Iraqi peoples life a living hell when we blast through their towns looking for insurgents that should've NEVER made it across the boarder to begin with.....

Who's to say these insurgent groups weren't there to begin with? I don't believe they ALL just marched over the border overnight, they're too organized and know the cities too well for that. I believe this network was well established before 9/11. If you get rid of a nest of wasps in the attic and then find you have termites in the basement, it doesn't necessarily mean the termites moved in to fill the void. They were most likely there under the surface, and were only discovered once the main pest was removed.

dmc said:
If he had WMD's I would STILL be suporting this war..
Cause there's a direct threat to us and our allies...

He had WMDs, and he moved them to Saudi Arabia before the UN inspectors pulled out. If you think Saddam was just sitting in his palace playing solitaire for ten years crippled by UN sanctions, you're a fool. I believe he was gearing up for a retaliation with Al Qaeda using biological weapons, using Bin Laden's foot soldiers to come over here and spread it. Am I the only one who believes those outbreaks of the Norwalk virus on cruise ships was a test by terrorists to see how far they could spread a disease?

dmc said:
Fact is... Civilians are dying every day in Iraq in the crossfire between the US and the insurgents..
And that makes me sad...

Like it was such a paradise before... I'm sure the daily death tolls of Iraqi civilians before and after invasion are not much different.

dmc · Jul 8, 2005

JimG. said:
dmc said:

I hate to say this... But with Sadam at least they had water, electricity and transportation... For some people - thats all they need to raise their kids and live their lives..

Click to expand...

I'm going to show Claudia this quote...she has said exactly this many times.

It's true.. Lots of the people in the world don't need the internet, air conditioning, cars, McDonalds,Ski trips, etc...

They just need the basics... Food, Shelter and to walk the streets without getting blown up...

dmc · Jul 8, 2005

smitty77 said:
dmc said:

As well as making the Iraqi peoples life a living hell when we blast through their towns looking for insurgents that should've NEVER made it across the boarder to begin with.....

Click to expand...

Who's to say these insurgent groups weren't there to begin with? I don't believe they ALL just marched over the border overnight, they're too organized and know the cities too well for that. I believe this network was well established before 9/11. If you get rid of a nest of wasps in the attic and then find you have termites in the basement, it doesn't necessarily mean the termites moved in to fill the void. They were most likely there under the surface, and were only discovered once the main pest was removed.

dmc said:

If he had WMD's I would STILL be suporting this war..
Cause there's a direct threat to us and our allies...

Click to expand...

He had WMDs, and he moved them to Saudi Arabia before the UN inspectors pulled out. If you think Saddam was just sitting in his palace playing solitaire for ten years crippled by UN sanctions, you're a fool. I believe he was gearing up for a retaliation with Al Qaeda using biological weapons, using Bin Laden's foot soldiers to come over here and spread it. Am I the only one who believes those outbreaks of the Norwalk virus on cruise ships was a test by terrorists to see how far they could spread a disease?

dmc said:

Fact is... Civilians are dying every day in Iraq in the crossfire between the US and the insurgents..
And that makes me sad...

Click to expand...

Like it was such a paradise before... I'm sure the daily death tolls of Iraqi civilians before and after invasion are not much different.

All your points are hearsay... Sorry..
Trying to deal in fact here...

SkiDog · Jul 8, 2005

dmc said:
SkiDog said:

the NORTH of Iraq is beginning to THRIVE..

Click to expand...

It was thriving before we went into Iraq... We protected the Kurds - they esectially had their own country free from Sadams rule - us "liberating" Iraq was THE worst thing we could have done to them..

Now they are at the mercy of the stronger groups uin the country..

I dont think thats the whole story...maybe MORE thriving than other places in Iraq, but "thriving" might be considered a relative term.

Either way..I think in the long run (and this will be YEARS not months or days) thinkgs will be much better off for all Iraqis.

M

ChileMass · Jul 8, 2005

dmc said:
ChileMass said:

The question is - when are we justified in standing up for democracy? At what point do we take the lead in defending the most successful type of government in history? Everyone want freedom and democracy, and this isn't just a re-hash of the old line "inside every gook is an American trying to get out".

Click to expand...

Thats a pretty cocky statement..
I'm not sure our version of democracy is for everyone.. I agreed it's awesome.. But...
You know that Iraq will imediatly go into a civil war as soon as we leave..
It's going to be divided into three countries and don't see any problem with that...

I just don't know if democracy will work for every person in the world... Especially trabla based societies...

There are examples such as Jordan, where a consitutional monarchy reports to an elected parliament, more in the British style. Nothing wrong with that at all and a good precedent for other Islamic countries to follow.

We need their oil, they need our technology, medicine and democratic institutions. Our interests are inter-related. We need to help the region enter the 21st century.

dmc · Jul 8, 2005

smitty77 said:
Like it was such a paradise before... I'm sure the daily death tolls of Iraqi civilians before and after invasion are not much different.

Some say it was...
We had the Kurds protected..
Bagdahd was a thriving city with comerce and infarstructure...

dmc · Jul 8, 2005

ChileMass said:
dmc said:

ChileMass said:

The question is - when are we justified in standing up for democracy? At what point do we take the lead in defending the most successful type of government in history? Everyone want freedom and democracy, and this isn't just a re-hash of the old line "inside every gook is an American trying to get out".

Click to expand...

Thats a pretty cocky statement..
I'm not sure our version of democracy is for everyone.. I agreed it's awesome.. But...
You know that Iraq will imediatly go into a civil war as soon as we leave..
It's going to be divided into three countries and don't see any problem with that...

I just don't know if democracy will work for every person in the world... Especially trabla based societies...

Click to expand...

There are examples such as Jordan, where a consitutional monarchy reports to an elected parliament, more in the British style. Nothing wrong with that at all and a good precedent for other Islamic countries to follow.

We need their oil, they need our technology, medicine and democartic institutions. Our interests are inter-related. We need to help the region enter the 21st century.

Why do they need to enter the 21st century?
Why do they need our democratic institutions?
Why can't they just select the kind of government they want?

what gives us the right to ordain what they need to do?

SkiDog · Jul 8, 2005

dmc said:
All your points are hearsay... Sorry..
Trying to deal in fact here...

Its not all heresay....we didnt have UN sanctions and inspectors for nothing did we? do you belive its all made up?

He certianly wasn't sitting there twidling his thumbs that I know..

I think some tend to bend their perceptions of "fact" to suit their argument..

M

dmc · Jul 8, 2005

SkiDog said:
dmc said:

All your points are hearsay... Sorry..
Trying to deal in fact here...

Click to expand...

Its not all heresay....we didnt have UN sanctions and inspectors for nothing did we? do you belive its all made up?

He certianly wasn't sitting there twidling his thumbs that I know..

I think some tend to bend their perceptions of "fact" to suit their argument..

M

A lot of what he said was hearsay.. Tin Foil hat stuff... And thats cool... I'm down with conspiracy theories...

SkiDog · Jul 8, 2005

dmc said:
smitty77 said:

Like it was such a paradise before... I'm sure the daily death tolls of Iraqi civilians before and after invasion are not much different.

Click to expand...

Some say it was...
We had the Kurds protected..
Bagdahd was a thriving city with comerce and infarstructure...

"some"? I would venture to say FEW is a better term here...

And we'll never know the real death tolls on iraqis becasue Saddam was a mass murderer..

M

M

SkiDog · Jul 8, 2005

dmc said:
SkiDog said:

dmc said:

All your points are hearsay... Sorry..
Trying to deal in fact here...

Click to expand...

Its not all heresay....we didnt have UN sanctions and inspectors for nothing did we? do you belive its all made up?

He certianly wasn't sitting there twidling his thumbs that I know..

I think some tend to bend their perceptions of "fact" to suit their argument..

M

Click to expand...

A lot of what he said was hearsay.. Tin Foil hat stuff... And thats cool... I'm down with conspiracy theories...

I am too...I dig that stuff

yer right though some of the stuff was tinfoil, but you can't deny that guy had something going on over there when the inspectors were trying to inspect...he wasnt keeping them out for nothing..he was biding time.

M

JimG. · Jul 8, 2005

ChileMass said:
OK - here we go. But before I get into this, I just want to say that I enjoy reading posts from ctenidae and dmc very much on all topics, especially the ski/hiking topics......

But - you guys have it all wrong. You are dealing with symptoms of the problem and tactical solutions to a much bigger problem. The question is - when are we justified in standing up for democracy? At what point do we take the lead in defending the most successful type of government in history? Everyone want freedom and democracy, and this isn't just a re-hash of the old line "inside every gook is an American trying to get out". Ask the Russians or the Chileans or the Afghans if they were better off under dictator rule.

This is a values question, not a political one. So what if W went in 6 months prior to the UN actually giving him the green light? Don't you believe that the elected government - yes those awful guys Cheney and Rumsfeld - know what they were doing in going ahead before the UN formally approved it? They knew the UN would approve it, they knew a number of our historic allies could not support it (France has an Islamic population six times greater than ours in a country of 2/3 fewer people), and they knew we would largely wind up fighting it by ourselves anyway. As we saw yesterday and in Madrid, Europe is amuch easier target to hit than the US. The Euro politicians should thank us for fighting their battle and saving their political skins, but instead they bitch us out - ridiculous. The US went into Iraq when it was militarily most advantageous to do it. The US and Britain prove once again that we are willing to stand up to bullies and terrorists when others shrink from it.

As far as sealing off the Iraqi border - its impossible. Not only is the country larger than California and some of the harshest desert in the world, but Iraq shares a border with Iran and Syria, who would never have allowed US or even Allied troops to assemble along their borders. There would have been another shooting war for sure, especially with Iran. Plus - you think we have too many troops there now, if we tried to seal off the Iraqi border it would take 4 times as many troops, all of whom would be in harm's way.

There's a lot to consider in the US' unilateral decision to attack: does the US wait for the UN's approval before we take action, not only on this war but in any situation? There a whole bunch of countries out there who would like nothing more than to see the US become cowed by the UN and wait for its approval before we do anything on any issue. Is this what we want? To have the US interests held up because Peru or Andorra or North Korea hsa a problem with something vital to us? To diminish the prestige and power of the US is to increase the power and prestige of the Europeans, the Russinas, the Chinese, etc. Do we hesitate and wait for the approval and cooperation from the French and Germans? W and his boys know who they can count on and who they cannot before they take action. These guys are professionals. I voted for them. I trust their judgement to carry out the necessary work of defending the interests of my country and my family, because they are all inter-related.

When 9/11 happened, a lot of people lost their jobs (including me - 11 months, thanks) because the international economy is dependent on stability. We are still recovering economically from it, and I don't want to go through that again. If a bomb goes off on Wall Street, my kids are going to have a harder time going to college because it's tough for Dad to pay for college when he's been out of work or had a lower-paying job since the economy went into the crapper. Is that bringing the war close enough to home? You betcha, and it scares the shit out of me when I see those bombs going off in London. W and his cabinet may have rushed to war - I can't disagree there's probably some evidence to support your position. But you are requiring then to be perfect whereas war always makes a mess and people get killed. Let's do the job, kill every single one of those reactionary fanatical Islamic terrorist bastards that would undermine our wonderful society and get back to peace and prosperity, which is what we all want.

And I agree with alot of this (but I'll admit I don't like Rummy or Cheney, they just remind me too much of characters from "Dr. Strangelove"). I just don't agree we should have taken resources from Afghanistan to go get Saddam.

Don't care too much what countries who would have opposed us think, they all had special interests in Iraq or in their own political arenas and we know how I feel about special interests. Then again, I didn't see the need to totally alienate them either; we as Americans don't like being dictated to, why should they?

Powell had it right, the first Gulf war is a testament to that. You want to tell me we should have taken Saddam then, I agree.

Since these terrorists are still killing and blowing things up, it seems they are they only ones who have benefitted so far. Was that our goal?

ChileMass · Jul 8, 2005

dmc said:
smitty77 said:

Like it was such a paradise before... I'm sure the daily death tolls of Iraqi civilians before and after invasion are not much different.

Click to expand...

Some say it was...
We had the Kurds protected..
Bagdahd was a thriving city with comerce and infarstructure...

C'mon dmc - Saddam used to regularly send his MIG jets up to the north to bomb the Kurds when they got out of line. The only reason they were protected from 1997-2003 is because the US instituted the north (and south) "no-fly" zones after the first war, and we still had to go after Saddam's jets every so often when they were trying to bomb his internal enemies.

And speaking of which - Baghdad was a thriving city of commerce and infrastructure only for the Baathist Sunnis who made up about 10% of the population. Under Saddam, if you were against the Baathists you got tortured and killed. There is documented evidence of his ruling party and army killing tens of thousands of political opponents.

dmc · Jul 8, 2005

SkiDog said:
And we'll never know the real death tolls on iraqis becasue Saddam was a mass murderer..

Maybe not... BUT his main target - The Kurds and Shiites were protected by us... We did not need to rush in there..

dmc · Jul 8, 2005

ChileMass said:
C'mon dmc - Saddam used to regularly send his MIG jets up to the north to bomb the Kurds when they got out of line. The only reason they were protected from 1997-2003 is because the US instituted the north (and south) "no-fly" zones after the first war, and we still had to go after Saddam's jets every so often when they were trying to bomb his internal enemies.

thats exaclty what I was saying..
We had them protected... What was the rush?

dmc · Jul 8, 2005

JimG. said:
Since these terrorists are still killing and blowing things up, it seems they are they only ones who have benefitted so far. Was that our goal?

Another oil source to feed our SUVs?

JimG. · Jul 8, 2005

dmc said:
JimG. said:

Since these terrorists are still killing and blowing things up, it seems they are they only ones who have benefitted so far. Was that our goal?

Click to expand...

Another oil source to feed our SUVs?

There are many underlying goals that will never be publicly admitted. All to the benefit of special interests. As much as I hate it, it's been a part of our system since the start.

This time it's London...

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