Jay Peak Lift Rummors

JPTracker · Jul 19, 2010

Found this blog from a link over on Snow Journal.

Now, this is interesting. Not that the last bit of news wasn't interesting but this is REALLY interesting.

Throckmorton reports that intelligence gathered on the summer tram ride included some as-yet-unveiled-by-Jay Management plans for lift relocation and even, GASP, a new lift!!!! This does not mean that the fabled West Bowl Expansion is happening any time soon. We have concluded that Throckmorton's and Gollum's children may be able to ski the West Bowl by chairlift. And for the non-family visitor, those boys are still teenagers. What it does mean is more skier capacity on the existing ski area, particularly Stateside, and better access to intermediate terrain on the lower mountain. This is scheduled to be ready for the 2011/12 ski season, according to our source. Shall we call him Deep Powder?

This is what the Tram operator (Deep Powder, not George) revealed. Stay with me now:

1) The Bonaventure quad chairs will be relocated to the existing Jet Chairlift. So, the Jet Triple (AKA The Blue Chair) will become the Jet Quad (AKA, uhhh, the formerly Blue but now Red Chair). With any luck, Bill Stenger will spring for some Tremclad and we will still be able to call it the Blue Chair.

2) This is wild. The Bonventure Chair (AKA the Red Chair) will become the Bonaventure Six-Pack. Yes, a six person chair. And who knows what colour it will be! Anyone who has experienced a six-person chair knows the general mayhem of these line-ups and the starting gate things that get the chair riders set up for boarding. We are not excited about this.

3) The new lift will allegedly run from somewhere near the Moose T-bar (AKA Queen's Highway T-bar) to the top of Lower River Quai (ie., the Lower Quai/Goat intersection). This is a very interesting proposition and will, a) make getting from Stateside to Tramside much more fun, b) open up the Lower Goat and Lower Quai to more intermediate skiers looking for interesting runs, and, c) help reduce traffic on the Upper Goat, which is a disaster waiting to happen on most busy days. On the down side, it could, depending on the route, wreck Buck Woods and/or Buckaroo Banzai and a few secret stashes. Maybe the lift will run right up the Lower Goat. Check out the Jay Peak Trail Map and draw your own lift line.

1) The rumor I previously heard was the Bonnie being used to rebuilt the Jet

2) I don't like the idea of a six pack for the Bonnie. Maybe to help with traffic they could add snow making to Upper Quai. Also they are loosing a lot of parking with the new Hotel Jay over on Tram Side but they are using all the dirt excavated to seriously increase the parking over on Stateside. With most people now having to come in from Stateside maybe the Six Pack makes sense.

3) I also had heard that the Jet chair would be used to replace the Queens t-bar and would be used to give easier access to the terrain park. The only way this could happen from the area mention above is with a new trail right through Buckaroo Bonzai Glade.

riverc0il · Jul 19, 2010

I just saw the same posting.

The six pack idea might be worth while. From what I understand, the heavier chair than a HSQ is less prone to wind hold. That said, any high speed lift is more prone than a fixed grip. The benefits are significant in making the Bonnie Stateside's key transport lift. But...

Rumor three makes the transfer lift somewhat redundant with a new lift going from the TBar to Lower Goat. You can't really ski that as a "pod" and I don't see any added value in being able to ski the lower Tram trails instead of just sliding down to the Tram from the Tbar. A lift accessing the lower trails on Stateside would seem more appropriate (sadly) as that could provide a lower mountain lift (more resistant to wind hold perhaps) able to access lower mountain blues. That would need to go up to Taxi, as far to looker's left as possible to access the most terrain or involve a few cuts through some trails to access looker's left trails and provide access directly to the Jet cutoff. This would also serve as a great terrain park lift (keeping park kids off the main mountain lifts, woo hoo) and also provide access to Tramside via Taxi. This seems much more likely than hacking a lift up to Lower Goat.

For the record, I know nothing and that is only my commentary on the rumor and its pros/cons.

Regardless of what happens, it is amazing the amount of work they are putting into the entire resort in all aspects. It is nice to see that amongst the larger 4 season resort items that upgrades to the skiing infrastructure are being made significantly if any of these three rumors pan out. Seems like a replacement of the Bonnie and a rebuild of the Jet are the most certain per JPTracker's prior reports.

riverc0il · Jul 19, 2010

I just saw the same posting.

The six pack idea might be worth while. From what I understand, the heavier chair than a HSQ is less prone to wind hold. That said, any high speed lift is more prone than a fixed grip. The benefits are significant in making the Bonnie Stateside's key transport lift. But...

Rumor three makes the transfer lift somewhat redundant with a new lift going from the TBar to Lower Goat. You can't really ski that as a "pod" and I don't see any added value in being able to ski the lower Tram trails instead of just sliding down to the Tram from the Tbar. A lift accessing the lower trails on Stateside would seem more appropriate (sadly) as that could provide a lower mountain lift (more resistant to wind hold perhaps) able to access lower mountain blues. That would need to go up to Taxi, as far to looker's left as possible to access the most terrain or involve a few cuts through some trails to access looker's left trails and provide access directly to the Jet cutoff. This would also serve as a great terrain park lift (keeping park kids off the main mountain lifts, woo hoo) and also provide access to Tramside via Taxi. This seems much more likely than hacking a lift up to Lower Goat.

For the record, I know nothing and that is only my commentary on the rumor and its pros/cons.

Regardless of what happens, it is amazing the amount of work they are putting into the entire resort in all aspects. It is nice to see that amongst the larger 4 season resort items that upgrades to the skiing infrastructure are being made significantly if any of these three rumors pan out. Seems like a replacement of the Bonnie and a rebuild of the Jet are the most certain per JPTracker's prior reports.

TheBEast · Jul 20, 2010

Wow, interesting.....

Harvey · Jul 23, 2010

Riv - can you (or anybody) explain to me why fixed grips are less prone to windhold? Does the actual "solid" connection help it sway less?

I know that gondola's go on windhold easily because they have so much surface area.

billski · Jul 23, 2010

harvey44 said:
Riv - can you (or anybody) explain to me why fixed grips are less prone to windhold? Does the actual "solid" connection help it sway less?

I know that gondola's go on windhold easily because they have so much surface area.

It's my understanding that a large part of it is because newer lifts are higher off the ground/less protected and also run at a higher speed.

threecy · Jul 23, 2010

billski said:
It's my understanding that a large part of it is because newer lifts...and also run at a higher speed.

For example, think about when you drive on a gusty day. Driving 20 MPH on a windy day results in very little swaying/etc. Driving 60 MPH, on the results in some significant swaying. Mind you, lifts aren't operating anywhere near that speed, however the difference between 400 FPM and 1100 FPM is significant.

skiadikt · Jul 23, 2010

maybe it has to do with how the chairs are "clamped" to the cable. if speed was the reason, you'd think they could just run the detachables slower on windy days instead of shutting them down. at k, on windy days the snowden quad (an old fixed grip) can sometimes be the only chair running. though i think the upper half is also pretty wind protected.

speden · Jul 23, 2010

I think a fixed grip has a higher density of chairs on the cable than a detached, since less spacing is needed between chairs. More chairs equals more weight, so perhaps the cable would be less likely to get pulled off the track with more weight on it.

NYDrew · Jul 23, 2010

I think the blue chair is just fine as a triple. The red chair could use an upgrade, but I think in the form of a high speed. Most red terrain can be accessed from the blue if wind conditions dictate.

What they need to work on is a better way to transition between stateside and tramside. Coming into stateside you have two options...navagating cruddy hardpack "glade?" or passing through the red base area at warp speed. Coming back I generally warpspeed on the catwalk to take that other hard pack "glade?" and once again scratch my butt through the villiage area.

They also need to consider that disaster lift over on tram side if they want to become a real "resort." Something needs to be done about the brutal conditions on it. As far as the tram...I don't like the tram...why do I want to sardine inside of a metal box and not even have a place to sit?

threecy · Jul 23, 2010

skiadikt said:
maybe it has to do with how the chairs are "clamped" to the cable. if speed was the reason, you'd think they could just run the detachables slower on windy days instead of shutting them down.

Areas already do this (run the detachables at slower speeds on windy days). I haven't any experience running a detachable lift, but I suspect there may be a limit on how slow they can go (non-aux).

The issue with wind is not chair grips - a windy day in New England isn't going to cause chairs to fall off the cable. The issue is chairs (and communication lines) swinging in the wind - ie causing a derailment off a sheavetrain.

JPTracker · Jul 23, 2010

A problem detachables do have is icing. If the cable starts icing up then the chairs may grip on top of the ice causing them to slide. I've been at Jay at least on one occasion where the Flyer was shut down due to icing and the Bonnie was still running.

4aprice · Jul 23, 2010

JPTracker said:
A problem detachables do have is icing. If the cable starts icing up then the chairs may grip on top of the ice causing them to slide. I've been at Jay at least on one occasion where the Flyer was shut down due to icing and the Bonnie was still running.

They shut down the HSQs for icing down here in PA. (a much more common occurance down here - I hope)

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ

JPTracker · Sep 17, 2010

Update to lift rumors:

Hiked the mountain today and talked to two different workers. The current favorite is that a new six pack will follow the line of the old Bonnie double up Power Line to Saint Georges Prayer. The Bonnie was moved from there because it was very prone to wind hold. The current thought is that because the six pack chairs weigh a lot more the the old double chairs they will be a lot less prone to wind holds. Also it will give easier access to the other side of the mountain. Down side is it will be a hike over to Can AM, Vertigo and Upper Quai. Noticeable on my hike were numerous survey stake along Saint Georges Prayer and Power Line which gives some backing for this rumor.

Not part of the rumor but my guess is that the replacement for the T bar can now use the lift line. They can use the old Jet Triple and have it exit where liftline meets Can Am. This would just be an easy ski down to the terrain park from here, or to Taxi to get to Tram Side.

riverc0il · Sep 17, 2010

I like your thinking JPTracker regarding possible repositioning of the Jet to the Can Am/Liftline intersection. High enough to get folks to the lower mountain trails under Taxi and also back to Tramside. They would need to cut some trail through the lower part of Deliverance though if they wanted to make full use of that lower mountain trail system. Are they going to replace the Bonnie and the Jet this season?

Interesting regarding going up Power Line and up St George's Prayer. I am fine with a small hike up to Vertigo and River Quai. I would be more concerned with easier access to Tramside. That aspect of the Bonnie is often over looked by many skiers with the high speed lifts are on hold. From a ski area logistics perspective, it seems like a no brainer though.

JPTracker · Sep 17, 2010

Just took a Tram ride after dinner and talked to a couple of the lifties. The six pack to Saint Georges Prayer is pretty sure thing for next year but they will be putting some wind gauges up there this winter to verify their assumptions.

jerryg · Sep 17, 2010

One of the issues is that the grips and obviously terminals are much much more complex and the mechanical components of the terminals can get damaged if/when a swinging carrier comes off the line.

I would guess that while on the line, the possibility of a haul rope derailing would be the same with a FG as with a HS, but derailment could happen if there is a mechanical breakage or failure when the carrier comes into the terminal.

When a mountain is about to close a lift because of really high winds and they are just running it to get everyone off, you'll notice that often times the operator will slow the line down even more as each carrier approached the terminal.

This is how it was explained to me. :fangun:

deadheadskier · Sep 18, 2010

What is the benefit of moving the 6 pack over to Powerline? Less wind? Just seems odd that they would intentionally have a terminus at a point that would require a hike to access those trails.

riverc0il · Sep 18, 2010

deadheadskier said:
What is the benefit of moving the 6 pack over to Powerline? Less wind? Just seems odd that they would intentionally have a terminus at a point that would require a hike to access those trails.

The lift can angle up St George's Prayer and end high up on the hill than the Bonnie (perhaps as high as the Freezer?). It basically allows skiers to access more terrain on both sides of the mountain whereas currently you need to hike up Goat to access anything on the other side of Goat from the Bonnie. There would only be a slight up hill to the Can Am area. Carrying enough speed and skating would be fine. Check out a Google Maps satellite. The additional trail accessibility is considerable.

Tin Woodsman · Sep 18, 2010

riverc0il said:
The lift can angle up St George's Prayer and end high up on the hill than the Bonnie (perhaps as high as the Freezer?). It basically allows skiers to access more terrain on both sides of the mountain whereas currently you need to hike up Goat to access anything on the other side of Goat from the Bonnie. There would only be a slight up hill to the Can Am area. Carrying enough speed and skating would be fine. Check out a Google Maps satellite. The additional trail accessibility is considerable.

Truth. The terminus of the old Bonnie was sufficiently uphill that you could easily carry enough speed with minimal skating (especially b/c the wind is usually at your back) to get to Upper Quai, Can Am and Vertigo. Adding direct access to the Goat side and the trails/glades down into West Bowl more than makes up for any modest inconvenience.

I wonder whether they can employ some fencing at the top of the lift to cut down on the wind somewhat. Prevailing winds should blow pretty much straight down the lift line, no?

Either way, it will be great to see the old lift line used again. I loved that old Bonnie double and how it would run pretty low to the ground about 3/4 of the way up. In good snow years, you'd be only 5-6 feet off the surface and it wasn't a trail in those days so I must sheepishly admit that I jumped a time or two.

Anyway, presumably Powerline will be retained as a trail, which will make it quite the stage for watching good skiers down below with its consistent pitch and double fall line.

Finally, to riverCoil's point about cutting through Deliverance to take full advantage of the new lower mtn lift position, wouldn't you want people to get all the way over the Angel's Wiggle too? If so, might some intrustion into lower Canyonland be necessary as well? Or am I confused?

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