Cat skiing interest - east coast

[AdironRider]

I wonder if it would even be a feasible idea, but hey its September and Ive had nothing to do all day.

Wouldnt it be cool to have a cat skiing operation, on the east coast?

What types of hoops do you think one would need to jump through to get a commercial cat skiing operation approved? Would it be as difficult as building a new ski area? Less? Piece of cake?

Thinking a backcountry yurt with guided tours from the yurt as a base would definitely be doable from a cost standpoint, I was oggling snow cats all day as a result of that Sundown thread. Those suckers are cheap, yurts are cheap. Hell for 30k youd have all the equipment you would need.

Where do you think the best area would be to have one? Im thinking VT would actually be out of the question due to that 250 thing and a general lack of above treeline skiing. Whites would be tough as well due to terrain and potential conflict of use with other backcountry skiers, etc. That leaves the ADK and Maine. ADK has some awesome slides that would be much easier day trips from a yurt base. Lots of miles long access slogs before you get to the base of those slides. Havnet skied in Maine enough to really know if there are any good areas that would support a cat.

What do you guys think?

 

[thetrailboss]

It's already going on:

Now if Sugarloaf would use theirs for trips onto Burnt Mountain then we would be talking.

 

[riverc0il]

LOL. Sugarbush cat skiing. :lol:

Quebec has some cat skiing in the Chic Chocs. Eastern USA? Completely not needed, IMO. Everything is pretty much doable as a day trip with hiking. Its not like you could do powder cat skiing. There is not Avi control and slides in the whites and dacks would put the risk level too high. Spring skiing maybe. But I don't think there would be the interest to justify running a program even if someone could get permits to clear a cat path up a mountain.

 

[Skimaine]

How about Sugarloaf on wind hold days. :roll:

 

[AdironRider]

Yeah, Im not talking Sugarbush or Sugarloaf, Im talking a full on exclusive op like Coil is talking about.

 

[thetrailboss]

LOL. Sugarbush cat skiing. :lol:

Hey, laugh all you want, but they do it and it is pretty popular from what I've heard. They do the first tracks program with it and they use it for powder days and windhold days. Is it backcountry? No. I never said it was and I was being more tongue in cheek I guess. It is what it is. Not what you have in mind. It is a good launching pad though to get people excited.

And to get back to the original post--once again the numbers thrown out to buy a cat and get started seems really low. $30k doesn't buy you much, especially with a snowcat that brand new will run you $250k or so. Yeah you can buy used, but you need to have it pass inspection and be appealing to your clients and safe.

As to other venues, why not have the Mount Washington Observatory do rides up the auto road for backcountry skiing?

 

[riverc0il]

Hey, laugh all you want, but they do it and it is pretty popular from what I've heard. They do the first tracks program with it and they use it for powder days and windhold days. Is it backcountry? No. I never said it was and I was being more tongue in cheek I guess. It is what it is. Not what you have in mind. It is a good launching pad though to get people excited.

[SNIP]

As to other venues, why not have the Mount Washington Observatory do rides up the auto road for backcountry skiing?

Its ALL GOOD TB! I know what the Bush program is about. I know it isn't Backcountry or even Sidecountry. If it was, I wouldn't snicker at it. It ain't a launching pad for anything short of a way to spend an excessive amount of money on a novelty. S'all good. I will continue to harpoon the operation, though. S'all good and different strokes for different folks and people can spend their money on whatever they want, novelties and all... but good grief! Folks that can afford to pony up that money should just be flying out west to do some real cat skiing. S'all I am saying about that!

And since you made your question about MWO with a winky... I will take the unspoken joke for what it was intended to be. Otherwise, I might have to break out the Uzi and Flame emoticons.

 

[deadheadskier]

I think it would take a lot of time to get going. One of the issues you have with East vs. West is actual skiable terrain on the mountains.

The West has the obvious advantage of the above treeline stuff that is quite minimal in the East. The West naturally also has much wider spaced trees below treeline than the East. The softwood forests at high elevation in the East tend to be a quagmire, hence why people head to gullies/slides. Hardwood forests are a lot better, but it seems the areas that have an abundance of great terrain and enough natural are pretty much only located in Northern VT. I'm not saying there aren't exceptions, but the lower elevation of the Greens compared to the Whites and the Adirondacks is the reason for it. I'm not sure why the soft wood forests in the west have such wider spaced trees than the East.

Sugarloaf area could be a good option though. You've got the Bigelows across the valley, Mt. Abraham to the west. There's a lot of terrain above 3500 feet in that area that I'm sure averages in the range of 200 inches like Sugarloaf.

I've got zero experience touring (hope to change that this winter) but like River said, much of that stuff is probably doable in a day. That said, the point of having a Cat operation would be to crank out 10+K Vert in a day. I've read about people cranking out that kind of vert on Washington while touring. I don't think I'd have an interest in ascending 10K in a day. I'll take the cat thanks :8

 

[EPB]

A cat skiing operation already exists in Quebec. Its called Vallee Taconique and I believe it's in the Gaspe peninsula well north of Maine. They've got a couple of runs-all about 1800 vertical. http://www.valleetaconique.ca/e_pages/profile.html

 

[Glenn]

Cat skiing would be a cool way to explore old areas that are no longer open. But transporting the cat around and getting land owner permission would be a real bear.

 

[HowieT2]

Its ALL GOOD TB! I know what the Bush program is about. I know it isn't Backcountry or even Sidecountry. If it was, I wouldn't snicker at it. It ain't a launching pad for anything short of a way to spend an excessive amount of money on a novelty. S'all good. I will continue to harpoon the operation, though. S'all good and different strokes for different folks and people can spend their money on whatever they want, novelties and all... but good grief! Folks that can afford to pony up that money should just be flying out west to do some real cat skiing. S'all I am saying about that!

And since you made your question about MWO with a winky... I will take the unspoken joke for what it was intended to be. Otherwise, I might have to break out the Uzi and Flame emoticons.

You're totally off base. I've done it once each of the last two seasons not including days where I caught the cat when there were windholds on the lifts.
It only runs on powder days, I track the weather and sign up the day before. 7am they take you up just as the sun is coming out. Both times I've had about 2 feet of untracked powder. You do 4 runs on the trails of the north lynx pod and then drop into slidebrook, for a final run through the woods all the way down to German Flats, where you catch the shuttle back to the base.
Comparing it to a trip out west is silly. Would I prefer to be doing real cat skiing out west, of course. I'm not an idiot, but I can't afford to go skiing out west and even if I could it would be for a couple of days, week max. This costs $75 and I'm already there. Afterwards, there is still a full day of skiing. who can sleep on a powder anyway.

 

[Tin Woodsman]

I don't think that you'll want to target above treeline areas or slides. For one thing, there are very few of them, so the terrain options are limited. Perhaps more problematic is that this type of terrain, b/c it's so rare on the EC, tends to be found within State parks (ADK) or on USFS land (Whites). Landowner permission and permitting in those instances would be fraught with difficulty and would take a lot of time and money. I think your best bet is to look for areas with lots of hardwoods, on private land, and in a good snowbelt. you probably also want areas that have been logged where roads already exist, though regrowth from said logging might be detrimental to the skiing experience, so that could be a wash.

Assuming that Act 250 doesn't hamstring you, VT has a few spots with good vertical and good snow on private land:

North face of North Jay Peak down to Rt. 105
NE face of that ridge/range to the NW of Smugglers, heading down to Rt. 15
Phen Basin on the north side of the App Gap
Adams Mtn and that entire range to the East of the Granville Gulf between Rt. 100 and Rt. 12

In NH and ME, there are a lot more opportunities b/c there are more mountain, though you need to be careful about staying in the favored snowfall areas (far north NH and the Grafton Notch to Mt. Bigelow area all seem to get 200" + if you get up over 3000' or so)

If you price it right ($200-250/day) I could see people signing up, though the vicissitudes of NE weather could be a problem for generating bookings far in advance.

 

[riverc0il]

You're totally off base. I've done it once each of the last two seasons not including days where I caught the cat when there were windholds on the lifts.
It only runs on powder days, I track the weather and sign up the day before. 7am they take you up just as the sun is coming out. Both times I've had about 2 feet of untracked powder. You do 4 runs on the trails of the north lynx pod and then drop into slidebrook, for a final run through the woods all the way down to German Flats, where you catch the shuttle back to the base.
Comparing it to a trip out west is silly. Would I prefer to be doing real cat skiing out west, of course. I'm not an idiot, but I can't afford to go skiing out west and even if I could it would be for a couple of days, week max. This costs $75 and I'm already there. Afterwards, there is still a full day of skiing. who can sleep on a powder anyway.

Five runs of untracked can be had for the price of a lift ticket if you are there for first tracks and know where to go. And, you can ski the rest of the day on the same ticket. Bush cat skiing is a novelty. Nothing wrong with that. Bush knows its market very well. Its actually a great idea and I am sure very lucrative for them. Its worth it to you. That's cool. I don't know where I am off base. I thought the emoticons I put into my post were a good indication of where I was jesting a little bit. :-?

 

[Geoff]

There was talk at one point 7 or 8 years ago of a small cat skiing operation on Mount Whittier north of Winnipesaukee. The problem is that area is so snow starved that you would only get a few decent days.

Viable cat skiing would need to be in the northern & central Green Mountains where there is a 250"+ microclimate. Ain't gonna happen in my lifetime.

 

[tjf67]

The Tug Hill is the only place in the East that I think there could be any shot of it working. You would have to be out of the park. If you operated where the are logging you could use the raods for the cats. Your not going to get much more than 600 ft of vert but that's the East. You would have blower powder, fairly large population base within three hours.

 

[EPB]

I could see interest in Cat skiing at Wildcat mountain servicing the 4400 foot Wildcat A(?). The north face of Mount Madison could also play host to some great cat skiing. I imagine in both cases, permitting would be a complete nightmare. Both, however could offer 2600+ vertical feet and 200+ inches of snow at higher elevation.

 

[campgottagopee]

I get rides to the top of Greek Peak all the time in a cat....no charge either!!! Come to Greek and I'll take you cat skiing FREE OF CHARGE

 

[HowieT2]

Five runs of untracked can be had for the price of a lift ticket if you are there for first tracks and know where to go. And, you can ski the rest of the day on the same ticket. Bush cat skiing is a novelty. Nothing wrong with that. Bush knows its market very well. Its actually a great idea and I am sure very lucrative for them. Its worth it to you. That's cool. I don't know where I am off base. I thought the emoticons I put into my post were a good indication of where I was jesting a little bit. :-?

But this is 5 runs before the upper mtn lifts start spinning. You can take the cat and still get back ib time to hit the upper mtn lifts close to first chair. For me it's a once a year treat on a big powder day. I guess it is a novelty, but for the price of a lift ticket, it's pretty sweet. Don't think you can make a business out of it, though.

 

[J.Spin]

Isn't Lodge Theory already planning to offer cat skiing this season on their land? - It sure sounds like it based on the Powder article. It's not exactly the typical commercial setup where anyone can just pay and go, but if they are going through with it, it must be logistically feasible. I'd say the biggest hurdles would be regulations etc. like Tin Woodsman indicated. There also might need to be more accommodation for weather as he said, but although it’s less frequent in most places, bad ski weather happens in the western U.S./Canada ski country as well, and they deal with it. I think Tin Woodsman is on track though with the tree skiing vs. any sort of above tree line stuff. With the right vertical, terrain, and snow, I don't see how it would be all that different than places out west that operate below tree line. If the operators priced it right and simply cleaned up any areas of the forest that needed it, guests would have some amazing days in the powder. With some of the terrain and snow that I’ve encountered around here in my explorations, I’ve actually been surprised that nobody has tried something up to this point (or perhaps they have and ran into regulatory/financial hurdles), so it will be interesting to see how it goes at Lodge Theory.

 

[awf170]

A cat skiing operation already exists in Quebec. Its called Vallee Taconique and I believe it's in the Gaspe peninsula well north of Maine. They've got a couple of runs-all about 1800 vertical. http://www.valleetaconique.ca/e_pages/profile.html

I have driven and skinned around that valley and there isn't any terrain that is that great. I'm not too sure where they got that 1,800 ft vert number, since most the mountains in that area are pretty small.

I could see interest in Cat skiing at Wildcat mountain servicing the 4400 foot Wildcat A(?). The north face of Mount Madison could also play host to some great cat skiing. I imagine in both cases, permitting would be a complete nightmare. Both, however could offer 2600+ vertical feet and 200+ inches of snow at higher elevation.

Trees are WAYYYY too dense in both those areas.