ss20
Well-known member
Supe gets the shoulder seasons but Snowshed is a primary summer lift running 7 days a week at peak. I'd bet they have pretty similar hours ran.
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- Thread starter ScottySkis
- Start date
Supe gets the shoulder seasons but Snowshed is a primary summer lift running 7 days a week at peak. I'd bet they have pretty similar hours ran.
I always forget that they run Snowshed for biking in the summer.
joshua segal
Well-known member
I don't think that average Killington non-regulars are aware of the magnitude of deferred maintenance that Killington was facing when POWDR acquired it during the demise of ASC.
The amount of work and investment made in Killington from 2007-to date is impressive. Once could argue about the order in which they are doing the work, but it is clear they are not sitting around doing nothing.
Since 2007, Killington has installed 3-new lifts: North Ridge Quad; Skyeship Express; and the Snowden Six Express. Also, they re-opened the South Ridge with the old Snowden Quad. In addition, they completely refurbished K1 a few years ago. They replaced the summit Lodge and the Killington Base Lodge, not to mention significant repairs and upgrades to their snowmaking system. I find that list to be impressive.
Areas of the size of Killington need to control debt and debt servicing. IMO, they are doing it in a responsible way.
thebigo
Well-known member
Sunday river and Killington were in similar condition in 2007. Skiing SR or K today leaves the impression that SR prioritized lifts and snowmaking while K prioritized lodges.
joshua segal
Well-known member
I mostly agree with you, but I think both emphasized snowmaking. What happened was a business decision where SR prioritized lifts while K prioritized lodges. Both appear to be successful in attracting their market share. Killington's appeal to the NYC/NJ market, as well as their proximity to it, probably influenced Killington's decision.
The amount of work powdr did is not impressive. They took over and did nothing except the SPQ for a decade. They have let the snowmaking infrastructure crumble. Significant repairs for snowmaking? What are you talking about. They wait for a pipe to blow out and patch it. The same pipe blows out on multible trails every year. In almost 20 years they have replaced 3 lifts. That's impressive? I thought you work for vail and defend them tirelessly. Did u get a side gig for powdr?
joshua segal
Well-known member
You might want to take a look at Superstar's snowmaking improvements. I'll be skiing lift serviced at Killington in June. Where in the east will you be skiing lift-serviced in June?
Killington has been skiing into late May/June since the 70s, except for a few years when powdr took over. Powdr has not impressed anybody except for you with their improvements.
Newpylong
Well-known member
Superstar improvements? They haven't done a thing except slap more hydrants on that line since the Cup started. Okay, they added 10 new Impulse guns w/klik hydrants to the very bottom where it doesn't matter anyway. Now the public rollout takes the hit while they toil away at that trail at 30 degrees.
Killington's ability to run into June is due to elevation, low operational costs (1 lift, 1 trail, 1 lodge), and the desire to do so. Don't get fooled that it is due to sheer snowmaking power, of which they are far behind the top players in New England. I will spare you with numbers.
Besides the usual maintenance the extent of the snowmaking capital improvements that Killington has made in the past few years has consisted of replacing two compressors and two short lines (that blew out yearly). Boyne on the other hand has increased pumping capacity at their resorts an order of magnitude through new pumps, new pumphouses, and new distribution systems. That's on top of the new lifts. The difference is striking.... and I say this a sad face because K has and always will be my "home" large hill.
Killington's ability to run into June is due to elevation, low operational costs (1 lift, 1 trail, 1 lodge), and the desire to do so. Don't get fooled that it is due to sheer snowmaking power, of which they are far behind the top players in New England. I will spare you with numbers.
Besides the usual maintenance the extent of the snowmaking capital improvements that Killington has made in the past few years has consisted of replacing two compressors and two short lines (that blew out yearly). Boyne on the other hand has increased pumping capacity at their resorts an order of magnitude through new pumps, new pumphouses, and new distribution systems. That's on top of the new lifts. The difference is striking.... and I say this a sad face because K has and always will be my "home" large hill.
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thebigo
Well-known member
Killington absolutely wins May, there is no question. Problem is that as a 100 day a year family, we only ski there when everything else in the east is closed. The place is rundown and I do not care about their fancy new lodges.
MidnightJester
Active member
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While I am assuming the minor snowmaking improvements did help Killington with the on mountain experience slightly. They had in their minds Rest time and Down time the most as in Where they generate the extra Money. It Will continue with the New upcoming Village in the next few years(3-5). Are any of the older pumps and snowmaking lines and pump houses anywhere near where the old lodges are coming down and where the new Village Lodge will be going up.
Are there any Pumping stations or New snowmaking mentions included in the new Village master plans?
Are there any Pumping stations or New snowmaking mentions included in the new Village master plans?
Newpylong
Well-known member
I think the Snowshed pumphouse (and the feeds going out of there) will need to be replaced (and relocated) for the reasons you mentioned. I have not seen anything on this, it would be an Act 250 application when the time comes.
The village won't be around in 3-5 years. They made changes to the act 250 plans and still haven't resubmitted them yet. I'd say nobody will be living in the village for at least a decade and they aren't updating anything in the basin area untill the village starts happening so don't hold your breath. I'm seriously considering leaving the mountain I have loved and called home for over 20 years. Things were looking on the up and up after solimano took over but the last few years have taken significant steps backwards. It's actually quite sad. They seem to want the clientele of Stratton and Stowe but that is not what Killington is. Solimano seemed to realize that but lately I don't know if he has changed his mind or powdr has forced it but it's going in the wrong direction right now.
machski
Well-known member
There is likely a better chance LBO's Balsams plans blossom than K gets a base village first.
mister moose
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- Joined
- Oct 11, 2007
- Messages
- 1,088
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- 48
Most people use the bathroom, quite a few get lunch, and many buy a beer. So yes, the new lodges appeal to a large segment, maybe not you.
They have significantly built the summer bike business, and the town no longer has tumbleweeds in the summer. They built the water pipeline over to Pico with the associated upgrades. The groomer fleet looks fairly new. And I really don't care much how old the lifts are if they run most of the time. This season the combination of the Needles quad and Skyeship woes was a particularly bad experience.
There has been a bad case of 'village-itis' for decades. Meaning "We can't do XYZ, the village is just around the corner"
Newpy et al that have lobbied for larger pumping capacity seem to have a point, especially in the recent years where there are more warm-ups and shorter cold snaps. I don't have the spread sheet on how that will pay off; there is clearly a point at which it is too expensive for the added revenue gained. None of us have the financials to analyze.
The biggest new thing that is going forward right now is the waterline. They have been digging, blasting, and clearing for much of the winter. The line goes from the flats between Goodro's and Skyeship, right up the mountain, crosses East Mtn Road, and goes on to the hilltop above Snowshed/Needles. The first phase of the water supply is well underway, and this is one of the requisites for the Village. The other announcement is next week sometime the lower access road closes for regrading from Rte 4 to Anthony Way. The entire water and road projects are funded via a cocktail of TIF districts, State and Federal loans. The developer has guaranteed any property tax shortfall until the TIF funding from new condo owners has achieved parity with the added expense. Obviously things can go wrong, and delays are likely. It's construction in the mountains in a discretionary income economy.
Compare the Village activity with Base Camp at Bear. Base Camp is now seeking EB-5 funding, have done no site work, and the ski trail sign is out of date. They have been selling it for 7 years, keep extending the "Coming in 20XX" date, and still haven't put a shovel in the ground. At 2.9 Million plus for a Bear-side condo, maybe the market is telling them something, and not everyone on the project is listening. Prestige is advertising a 2,737 condo for 3.2 million, or $1,169 a foot.
Meanwhile, down at Okemo's new South Face Village:
Blue Spruce, our latest luxury townhome collection, is completed and nearly sold out. White Birch, a sister collection has broken ground and we are currently welcoming inquiries.
That's $1.57 million for 2,302 sq ft. $684 a foot. Almost half of what is being asked at Base Camp Bear.
www.okemorealestate.com
I agree it will be a few years until a new unit in The Village gets occupied, and how many years is uncertain. Great Gulf, the developer, has announced a re-design, and resultant additional time. With an experienced developer pouring money into a project, they will want to make constant progress towards achieving cash flow, otherwise they wouldn't have bought it. That's a new event that shouldn't be overlooked; a new owner that isn't an upside down creditor from a previous liquidation.
Skyeship is both looking tired and acting tired. I'd expect to hear of a rehab in the near future. What other lift would be ahead of it?
They have significantly built the summer bike business, and the town no longer has tumbleweeds in the summer. They built the water pipeline over to Pico with the associated upgrades. The groomer fleet looks fairly new. And I really don't care much how old the lifts are if they run most of the time. This season the combination of the Needles quad and Skyeship woes was a particularly bad experience.
There has been a bad case of 'village-itis' for decades. Meaning "We can't do XYZ, the village is just around the corner"
Newpy et al that have lobbied for larger pumping capacity seem to have a point, especially in the recent years where there are more warm-ups and shorter cold snaps. I don't have the spread sheet on how that will pay off; there is clearly a point at which it is too expensive for the added revenue gained. None of us have the financials to analyze.
The biggest new thing that is going forward right now is the waterline. They have been digging, blasting, and clearing for much of the winter. The line goes from the flats between Goodro's and Skyeship, right up the mountain, crosses East Mtn Road, and goes on to the hilltop above Snowshed/Needles. The first phase of the water supply is well underway, and this is one of the requisites for the Village. The other announcement is next week sometime the lower access road closes for regrading from Rte 4 to Anthony Way. The entire water and road projects are funded via a cocktail of TIF districts, State and Federal loans. The developer has guaranteed any property tax shortfall until the TIF funding from new condo owners has achieved parity with the added expense. Obviously things can go wrong, and delays are likely. It's construction in the mountains in a discretionary income economy.
Compare the Village activity with Base Camp at Bear. Base Camp is now seeking EB-5 funding, have done no site work, and the ski trail sign is out of date. They have been selling it for 7 years, keep extending the "Coming in 20XX" date, and still haven't put a shovel in the ground. At 2.9 Million plus for a Bear-side condo, maybe the market is telling them something, and not everyone on the project is listening. Prestige is advertising a 2,737 condo for 3.2 million, or $1,169 a foot.
Meanwhile, down at Okemo's new South Face Village:
Blue Spruce, our latest luxury townhome collection, is completed and nearly sold out. White Birch, a sister collection has broken ground and we are currently welcoming inquiries.
That's $1.57 million for 2,302 sq ft. $684 a foot. Almost half of what is being asked at Base Camp Bear.
140 Lodge Road, Ludlow VT Real Estate Listing | MLS# 4990662
140 Lodge Road, Ludlow VT Real Estate Listing | MLS# 4990662
www.okemorealestate.com
I agree it will be a few years until a new unit in The Village gets occupied, and how many years is uncertain. Great Gulf, the developer, has announced a re-design, and resultant additional time. With an experienced developer pouring money into a project, they will want to make constant progress towards achieving cash flow, otherwise they wouldn't have bought it. That's a new event that shouldn't be overlooked; a new owner that isn't an upside down creditor from a previous liquidation.
Skyeship is both looking tired and acting tired. I'd expect to hear of a rehab in the near future. What other lift would be ahead of it?
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Skyeship should definitely be the #1 priority, followed closely by ramshead needing a six pack. Snowshed and then needles would be my next two then superstar. Their plan is the next lift getting replaced will be superstar which makes no sense to me. And please don't put a six pack on supe, the unload area could not handle that.
Newpylong
Well-known member
Needles is fine for its use and isn't even on the distant horizon for replacement.
It's fine until something breaks and you can't get parts for it so it misses half the season.
drjeff
Well-known member
The reality is that so many 1st and 2nd generation high speed lifts built in the late 80's through the 90's are new previously unknown machines operating with what purchasers and manufacturers hoped would be a similar (50 yr or so) functional operating life like fixed grip lifts typically have, but it seems that the real world is showing its more life a 25-30yr life span!
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Just curious—has there been a big increase in season pass prices at Killington?
