Lake Louise gondola mess

[LVNLARG]

Did you guys here about this ? I'm surprised no one brought it up today. Here's 2 stories covering it from semi different angles :

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-11-27-canada-gondola_x.htm

http://news.yahoo.com/s/cpress/20051128/ca_pr_on_na/gondola_trapped

That gondola is brand new...they were building it when I was there last winter (where I actually am in my avatar pic) and it opened this summer. I almost went out for the races this past weekend and could very easily have been one of those trapped! :x

 

[Vortex]

Those poor kids. I was thinking what if they were my kids?

 

[cooper]

Thanks for the link. I hadn't heard about this at all.
To sum up, among the 60+ people trapped, two brothers, 10 and 9 years old, were trapped in a gondola alone for 3 hours as night fell and temps dropped below zero. Some folks got frostbitten.

That's just nuts (as he subconsciously scratches Lake Louise off his list). I'm ambivalent about whether these kids should've even been in that position, alone. I'm not a parent, but when I was that age, I used to walk 45 minutes with my brother every day to football practice, and a half hour to baseball. Seemed fine at the time, though today I'd have to scratch my head. For kids this young to be in a gondola without their folks, well, they must really rip.

 

[Vortex]

I thought about that after also.(kids age) Loon's gondola line says 1 rider must be 10 years old on the entrance sign. Must be what they feel would be old enough for and evac situation.
I let my son ride the Gondola with his friends with a radio or cell to keep tabs. (11 yrs old) Not the norm though.
We have set meeting times, but not more than an hour of seperation. It is a situation you have to be comfortable with. We have 6 years of experience at one resort.
Very good question though.

 

[tirolerpeter]

Stranded!

Over the years I too have experienced involvement in "lift outages." In one case my nephew (then 16) and I were suspended on a chair for about 20 minutes in biting cold and high wind. Fortunately, I had a backpack with me that contained some extra layers of clothing that we were able to use to shield ourselves to some degree. The most frustrating and infuriating part of the experience, which could have become truly dangerous as more time passed, was THE LACK OF COMMUNICATION with people stuck on the chairs. There is no excuse for not letting people know why they are stuck and being told of the efforts to help them. In another case, I was on a lift that experienced a power outage. The area personnel did a great job of "backing down the lift" and getting us off promptly. Loaded lifts will move in reverse simply because that side of the cable is much heavier than the other due to passenger weight. Careful use of the emergency braking system can get everyone off. There is no excuse not to have "stand-by" power units available to energize the braking system if not the entire lift at a reduced speed. Finally, modern gondolas have heat, and music. Little or no extra expense would be involved in having a PA (sound system) or even a two-way communication capability built right into each unit so that everyone aboard could keep in touch and feel less "isolated/abandoned." People feel much better if they have the knowledge that their situation is being attended to. Rescue efforts would also be much more efficient if people could be told how to prepare for the arrival of the rescuers.

 

[wavracr]

I was stuck for almost 2 hrs at Okemo about 15 years ago, on the triple chair to the top. It was very windy and 15 degrees without the windchill. It completely sucked. The ski patrol started getting people down in some sling chair contraption. The lift finally got fixed and we went up. I was pretty bent and went to custie services. They gave a half off voucher that expired at the end of the year - pffft!

 

[sledhaulingmedic]

Actually, most lifts are not designed to operate in reverse. In many designs, the brakes will not release unless all safety systems functional.

ANSI B77 does require aux power power systems, but if the brakes won't release, it doesn't matter. On older lifts, it's often possible to "jump out" a bad switch or sensor. On many newer lifts, this is now longer possible.

Interesting to hear about this new lift with a problem. Was it last year or the season before that Gunstock had a new HSD Quad that needed to be evac'd?

Having been involved with evac's and evac planning and training for quite a while, the communication issue is a huge one. I don't know that a PA system would be of little or no cost, but it sure would be handy.

 

[salida]

If the Michael Giuffy fellow is so concerned about his kids, why wasnt he on the gondola with him. Whatever, they should just suck it up, it was the end of the day, their skiing was done with for the day, they got a sick rappel, and I'm sure they got some free lift tickets.

In all honesty, personally, I think it sounds like fun!

 

[trailertrash]

hmmm

i dont know. there are two sides to every story. if your stuck on a lift dont you think the mtn knows about it? dont you think they are doing everything they can to get you down? obviously they want to aviod the yelling from a yuppie parent that couldnt wait to get to the mtn and get rid of their kid. what are they going to actually tell you over the pa: "the lift is stopped and they are doing everything they can to either get it going or get you down" duh! didnt you already know that? yeah it may make you feel involved if they yell something to you but it aint gonna get you down any quicker. id rather have that guy doing the yelling working on getting the lift going. id like to know what the kids were wearing, were they prepared? or were they like most of the punks i see in sweatshirts and no hat?

 

[Brettski]

Wow, that's rather harsh....

In any Event, maybe I'll start skiing with 40 feet of rope....

 

[bvibert]

If the Michael Giuffy fellow is so concerned about his kids, why wasnt he on the gondola with him.

I was thinking the same thing, that guy sounds like a jackass to me...

In all honesty, personally, I think it sounds like fun!

Are you reading my mind? I was thinking that too, what a cool way to end a nice day of skiing!

 

[bvibert]

Actually, most lifts are not designed to operate in reverse. In many designs, the brakes will not release unless all safety systems functional.

This is true, in fact most lifts have at least one back up system to prevent the lift from spinning backwards in the event of a brake failure. A 'roll back', as they're called, is serious business. It doesn't take long for a loaded lift to reach very dangerous, uncontrollable speeds if allowed to spin backwards.

 

[Vortex]

This is really two different things. Good parenting and lift evac.
I don't have enough info to know how they handled the lift evac. No comment here.
If my kids were on the lift alone.... I would be scared concered and jumpy, but the decision to let them ride would have be mine and the guilt would be mine.

 

[tirolerpeter]

Stuck!

Wow, that's rather harsh....

In any Event, maybe I'll start skiing with 40 feet of rope....

This has been a thought I have had for many years. At a certain point, I'm ready to rappel down myself. I'm sure the resort would "have a cow." After 20 minutes of freezing just hanging there, they gave us a hot chocolate voucher. [/list]

 

[molecan]

Interesting.

When I read the quotes from "a furious Michael Giuffy", It gives me great pause.

"It's minus five, minus 10 and there's been absolutely no been attempt by your organization to communicate with parents who have children there,"

"It's an absolute joke - I think people should be terrified to have their kids here without a parent accompanying them on every single lift," he said, his voice shaking.
I think a quick trip to a guest services desk, ski patrol shack, phone call, and the resort would have provided any information _available_.

Moreover, unless the children were in direct care of a resort employee at the time they were stuck on the lift, (e.g. w/a mountain 'ambassador', involved in a ski lesson or day care) it is the parents responsibility to be aware of where their children are, and are charged with their safety.

"I'm very unhappy," he said. "They've had no fluids, no food, no external source of heat. They're at risk for hypothermia." - Michael Guiffre

Well, gee, hmm. Why did he put his children in such a high risk situation, alone, without taking precautions, when he was CLEARLY aware of repurcussions?
ALL of these items can be easily carried. High carb food fits easily in pockets in bar form. Water, while posing more of a problem in bulk factor, still can be carried in smaller amounts. These people were not moving, so other than crying, screaming, (and reassurring your cardiologist father that you are better than others, and should never, never have been put in this situation) they would not have been rapidly depleted of water.
(However, I know I'd have wanted a lot of water, to cure my relentless cottonmouth if stuck in a gondola for 5 hours.)

Chemical hand/foot warmer packets for extremeties, if deemed necessary. But moving, and proper gear should mitigate frostbite as well as such gimmick heat pads.

That said, I've been skiing and riding lifts and gondola's alone, or with a sibling/friend from the time I was 6 or so. Usually only the first run, sometimes hour or two were spent with my father skiing, and only when I was fairly young.
I also walked to school, from the first grade on, in Boston no less. I rode my bike alone, took public transportation alone, etc.
I think both children and parents need to take responsibility for their actions, mishaps, and the situations you place yourself in, or simply do not put yourself and your children in those situations.
I know, I would not put a 15 year old in a position where they were responsible for the safety and wellbeing of a 10 year old. The safety of the younger person may be compromised, and the burden is unfair to the teen.

"Guiffy said lights were only brought onto the skill hill to illuminate the area for those trapped on the lift after he threatened officials."

This statement really bothers me, and suggests that this man was worried enough about the mental well-being of his children, to interfere with the rescue process, potentially putting other people and their children's lives at risk. FOR A NIGHT LIGHT for his 10 and 15 year olds.

Lights are not going to save anyone, nor provide heat to those in the gondolas. BUT, they do make it much simpler to take photo's for Exhibit A - M.
I'm sure that photographer Frank Gunn (his photo graced the USA today article) was grateful.
It sure looks to me like Mr. Guiffy be the next plaintiff in a ski resort lawsuit that I'll read about in the press.

Amusingly enough, I was stuck on a chair at Bretton Woods for 40+ mins on Saturday.
My two complaints are that, even after 30+ mins, nobody was sent down to inform anyone on the lift of the status. The lift was on an open trail, and the majority of the span of the lift was accessible from an adjoining lift and trail. No problem for BW to send one of the tens of unpaid 'ambassadors', or ski patrol, ski school, cafeteria workers, etc, to inform people.

The person I was on the lift with eventually called the number on the lift ticket, was informed they were trying to fix the problem, (duh) and that they had no time estimate.

After 40 mins or so, they got the auxilliary motor/generator running and slowly unloaded us. Fortunately, I was in the top 2/3's of the lift at this point, so the process was fairly quick.

The other complaint, was that this lift was the only way to access 12-20" of fresh ungroomed that dumped over there on the other side of the Crawford notch snowbelt.

But I'll save the details for a trail report.


-Coleman

 

[Brettski]

frostbite? In a brand new Gondi? What, they ran out of Propane?

 

[sledhaulingmedic]

Wow, that's rather harsh....

In any Event, maybe I'll start skiing with 40 feet of rope....

I carry 100', so I can double it and pull it down :wink: Likely to fall under the "Reckless skier" law in NH, however.

An evac of a Gondola is a serious matter. It cannot be undertaken with the Ground-based techniques that work for chairlifts. Cable riding requires considereably more skill and presents a much higher risk level. Because of the additional risks and resourses, combined with the protection form the elements that the cabins provide, I think most lift ops managers would be more likely to take extra time to work on the lift to try to get it restarted before they call an evac.

Even a perfectly executed evac is a PR nightmare.

 

[LVNLARG]

Wow....I've got so much to say bout what everybody had to say it's not even funny. I'll pick at it by item...

"Being hoisted down at the end of the day would be a cool way to end the day" < Missing my last hour and a half of skiing and waiting till after 8pm (in the dark for 3 hours) in the freezing cold just to be hoisted down is not my idea of fun.

"Why wern't the kids parents on the lift with them" < I skiied on my own "up the big hill" at my local resort from 7 on I think. This was because my parents simply didn't ski. One of them would however be in the lodge watching for me to come by and it was a family day hill on which if I had met with disater someone else's parent would have helped me and someone from the hill would have easily found my mom or dad. If I'd got lost off trail the search to find me might only have taken a max of 3 hours. Lake louise is a bit different....it's freakin' huge and if someone was lost the search might take 3 days. However cell phones and inexpensive 2 way radios have since been invented and I think I would have felt secure enough with one at 10+ (as would my parents) to let me loose there. My sis and I were let loose at K-mart at ages 13 and 9 I think and it was a big adventure for us. Again...no radios or cell phones. No helmuts either...but..there were also no snowboarders requiring the need for one :lol: . We loved adventuring all over all the different peaks. I recall we knew how to read the map (maybe even better than an adult) and budget our time (I think it was my sis who actually would be the one that would say we better go now as I'd want to keep going :lol: ) so that we would be at the appropriate base to meet mom for lunch and the end of the day. It was basicly no big deal. I'm sure if we were stuck on a lift my mom would have been very upset though and would have wanted information. (From what I heard of this incident resort officials were tight lipped and actully even trying to prevent upset parents from talking to the press instead of trying to help)

"Did the propane run out" < Good question...I'm not even sure if tht gondola is heated. If it was....well then ..all this bitching is a bit ridiculous. I'm going to set about finding out if it was heated.

"No food or water for 5 hours...horrendous" < Are you #$@$$$'n joking me? I routinely go 10 hours between lunch and supper...without even getting hungry. If you're going to starve to death or dehydrate in 5 hours...well..you've got bigger problems than being stuck on a lift. I would have though a much larger problem would have been those needing to #1 or #2.

"I'm going to carry 40 feet of rope from now on" < What do you do exactly when the lift starts back up with a jerk (due to the fact you don't know what's going on) as you're just starting down your self rescue rope? Fall and die...that's what.

"They should have had a system to tell people what was going on...I don't think it would cost much" < Well now. I just so happen to be a professional audio engineer and system designer and am actually qualified to answer that. Barring there being a inexpensively available in cabin system....I would put an all weather 70 volt horn on each tower. Say the lift has 40 spaced towers (The most one would ever likely likely have). I'd run the audio line with the lifts com's line up the middle. On a large lift it might be a 3 day install. They WOULD hear this no problem. They are LOUD. I installed some at a friends car dealership on a light pole on the lowest voltage tap and they were getting complaints from people the better part of a mile away. Price for that largest possible system using top quality components (this is what I would charge to do it....including flights there etc..not how much it would cost me) roughly $17,600 USD. What's more you could use it for other announcements thru the day or even play music for a event. Cost of a new gondola (like that one) 9 mil US I think. That's about .0018% of the build price. Hmmmmm. I wonder why that isn't part of lift and elevator regs??!? :angry: Alternatively...$60 bull horn....resort guy on ski-doo...about $150 for the whole event.

My biggest head scratcher is...are they completely unaware of technology? This > http://www.genielift.com/zb-series/zb-z135.asp should have been on site. Atleast one....maybe 2 or 3 ...stationed at varying points of the mountain. They only cost about 50K (the huge ones) (As in you could get 6 of them for the price of a new groomer). They would be a hell of a lot of use to have around anyway. I'm sure if you asked your insurer or even non-adrenalin junkie skiers how they'd like to be plucked from a lift that would be far prefered to James Bond tactics. They would run up a groomed trail no prob and in worst case conditions you could tow it with a groomer. They would also be faster and negate ski patrol training costs. They could be used for Camera platforms OVER the trail for things like the world cup races they were having...working on the lodge.....taking cool aerial pics.....painting lift towers....working on lift towers with greater safty.... Only downside would be the fact there are some lifts out there with rough terrain under them making it's use not possible...but then you would be dropping your skiers into that same rough terrain. The elevator and lift acts should be ammended to include a service road under them (where no trail existes) accesable and to be kept packed by tracked vehicle.

That's my 45 cents. :lol: :beer:

 

[snowmaker4191]

the sunbowl quad at sunapee had a problem with breaking down. the lift operators did a great job of backing down the lift,And geting everyone off the lift fast. if anyone saw the work they were doing on the lift at sunapee sunday they were putting in a new motor. thats what it looked like.

 

[Zand]

Another new motor? They just put one in last year. I wish they'd just hurry up and put in that HSQ or at least get a fixed-grip that goes faster than 3 feet an hour.