What is your favorite chairlift?

[BenedictGomez]

The 2019-2020 ORDA report says there were 41,976 rides for revenue of $882,648. At the less promoted Gore, there were only 12,313 rides and $192, 921 in revenue. Belleayre was even worse at 5,983 and $80,902 in revenue.

What were the corresponding expenses?

 

[machski]

Absent from this thread so far I believe

Bear Mountain Quad at Killington.

Outer Limits at one point was the indisputable most famous ski trail in the East. Perhaps still is, but the Bear luster is no longer what it was when I was a kid skiing K frequently in the 80s and 90s. I used to hardly ever leave Bear back then.

Still remains a great chair for the terrain it accesses plus watching good skiers rip an incredible bump run.

Bear started shedding its luster when they shut down Devil's Fiddle Quad IMHO. Two quads up that peak made it a magnet (not to mention the terrain) and that was prior to the glades showing up on map. But then again, White Heat at SR used to be almost as big a draw and THE lift to be on there. When bumps ruled the expert skiing world.

 

[x10003q]

What were the corresponding expenses?

Great question.
Usually it is not broken out. I guess if you went to Lake Placid/ORDA Hdqtrs you could get your hands on the data.

 

[jimmywilson69]

I'd have to imagine Whiteface is making more than enough that all 3 summer operations are in the black. if you break it down by resort, Whiteface is definitely making a profit, Gore might be, and Belleayrae is without a doubt in the red.

 

[Newpylong]

Bear started shedding its luster when they shut down Devil's Fiddle Quad IMHO. Two quads up that peak made it a magnet (not to mention the terrain) and that was prior to the glades showing up on map. But then again, White Heat at SR used to be almost as big a draw and THE lift to be on there. When bumps ruled the expert skiing world.

The removal of DF had very little if anything to do with it. The quad ran once or twice a season if at all many years when it was in place. The removal of Northeast Passage played more of a role than that as no one is now being placed in the East Basin from that base lodge on busy days.

The real culprit is simply that as the demographic grew older that Bear attracted, the numbers simply fell. If they were still in their 20s OL would still be a beehive like it was.

The parks have brought a lot of the traffic back and the Bear Redevelopment should tip it over the top beyond what it ever was.

 

[jimmywilson69]

There is a lot of traffic at Bear now. Maybe its not what it was in the early '90s, but neither is the entire resort. On the weekends its border line dangerous coming down lower wildfire or lower Skyeburst. The line for the high speed lift is usually huge and even the bear quad will get a bit of a line now that the snowshed crossover is open back into Needles.

 

[deadheadskier]

Maybe in the later years the Fiddle quad ran that infrequently, but not during the 80s and into the 90s. The lift infrastructure sucked elsewhere on the mountain. You had three Quad chairs getting out of Bear. The rest of the mountain had much less capacity for the terrain it served.

I'd say the big shift of traffic away from Bear to the Basin side was mainly due to the development of better lifts. First with Superstar Quad, then Canyon and finally K1. The closing of Northeast Passage certainly impacted things to an extent as well, but I'd say it was mainly lift improvements in the Basin that caused the big shift.

 

[nhskier1969]

To me it depends on terrain, views, vertical. The being said. I like the tram at Cannon, great vertical, awesome views, can access alot of the man. Out west would be Silver queen Gondola, awesome terrain, can lap 3400 vertical, get 34000 vertical in a half day. Views are awesome too.
Most interesting lift based on weather. The Cirque at Snowmass on a zero visibility day.

 

[Newpylong]

Maybe in the later years the Fiddle quad ran that infrequently, but not during the 80s and into the 90s. The lift infrastructure sucked elsewhere on the mountain. You had three Quad chairs getting out of Bear. The rest of the mountain had much less capacity for the terrain it served.

I'd say the big shift of traffic away from Bear to the Basin side was mainly due to the development of better lifts. First with Superstar Quad, then Canyon and finally K1. The closing of Northeast Passage certainly impacted things to an extent as well, but I'd say it was mainly lift improvements in the Basin that caused the big shift.

Yes but there were the numbers to warrant running the chair then. It's infrequent use and ultimate removal was a result of less skier visits, not the cause. They aren't going to remove a lift that is providing substantial uphill capacity.

I look forward to that side getting some TLC in the near future.

 

[deadheadskier]

We are in agreement on why it was removed. The last 4-5 years didn't have the traffic to support the lift.

All I'm saying is I feel the primary reason that Bear Mountain traffic nosedived is lift improvements elsewhere on the mountain. If no SS or Canyon were added, Bear would probably have remained busy enough to keep the DF quad going.

 

[ss20]

We are in agreement on why it was removed. The last 4-5 years didn't have the traffic to support the lift.

All I'm saying is I feel the primary reason that Bear Mountain traffic nosedived is lift improvements elsewhere on the mountain. If no SS or Canyon were added, Bear would probably have remained busy enough to keep the DF quad going.

I agree with that. I was not around for it but I hear that when Canyon was added it was a game-changer.

 

[thebigo]

Had the cheap ASC pass when I was an undergrad, it was something around $350. Saturdays would get stupid crowded, I remember parking at skyeship and then skiing SRT and DFQ midday to avoid the crowds. Both would be ski on while every other lift would have a serious line. Needles would also occasionally be ski on with a massive line for stage 2.

 

[Newpylong]

Couldn't be that ASC Bronze pass. Still have one around somewhere.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Great question.
Usually it is not broken out. I guess if you went to Lake Placid/ORDA Hdqtrs you could get your hands on the data.

I know, it was a rhetorical question. ORDA always gives revenue, but never gives the corresponding expenses, which, for anyone who works in finance is a hysterical thing. All but meaningless. And good look finding it, you'll find Jimmy Hoffa's body easier than finding useful info the way ORDA comingles & makes parsing out its' financials, which is clearly intentional (at least it was that way several years back the last time I checked).

 

[urungus]

I know, it was a rhetorical question. ORDA always gives revenue, but never gives the corresponding expenses, which, for anyone who works in finance is a hysterical thing. All but meaningless. And good look finding it, you'll find Jimmy Hoffa's body easier than finding useful info the way ORDA comingles & makes parsing out its' financials, which is clearly intentional (at least it was that way several years back the last time I checked).

Also - There is the revenue from gondola rides in the summer that gets reported, but how do you account for the proportion of winter lift ticket and season pass revenue that should be credited to the gondola ? I guess if there are rfid gates on each lift you could calculate the percentage of rides taken on the gondola vs the rest of the lifts.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Also - There is the revenue from gondola rides in the summer that gets reported, but how do you account for the proportion of winter lift ticket and season pass revenue that should be credited to the gondola ? I guess if there are rfid gates on each lift you could calculate the percentage of rides taken on the gondola vs the rest of the lifts.

That would be a useful piece for sure. But it's just funny how ORDA always tries to play "hide the potato" from New York State residents, which de facto tells you what a sucking cash hole it is. Whiteface probably makes money, Belleayre definitely loses money, and I feel pretty sure Gore likely loses money too with virtually no avenues for ancillary revenue.

 

[Harvey]

Whiteface probably makes money, Belleayre definitely loses money, and I feel pretty sure Gore likely loses money too with virtually no avenues for ancillary revenue.

What do you base this on?

 

[Newpylong]

I think the assumptions are sound based on the stated revenues if you spitball operating costs.

 

[ne_skier]

The Devil's Fiddle lift made sense if you think about the context of the times. When it was installed, it was needed as a way to get skiers from Northeast Passage and the future Parker's Gore to the main mountain efficiently so they didn't overcrowd the then-Bear Mountain Triple. Once Parker's Gore was canceled and Northeast Passage was abandoned, it left a weirdly placed backup lift that only directly serviced two or so trails. The Skye Peak Express was the nail in the coffin for Devil's Fiddle, once the slow, cold fixed-grip was replaced with a detachable, traffic on the Bear Mountain lifts in general decreased and management figured it wasn't worth the money to get it inspected and keep maintaining it just for it to run a couple of days a season.

 

[ne_skier]

That would be a useful piece for sure. But it's just funny how ORDA always tries to play "hide the potato" from New York State residents, which de facto tells you what a sucking cash hole it is. Whiteface probably makes money, Belleayre definitely loses money, and I feel pretty sure Gore likely loses money too with virtually no avenues for ancillary revenue.

Read Lazlo Vajtay's post on NY Ski Blog about the Belleayre situation, its 8 years old yet everything stands true today. ORDA today as far as Belleayre goes has found a way to dump money into it while simultaneously not giving a shit. Within 5 years we got a shiny new gondola, a new beginner lift and a new Discovery lodge, yet there are still multiple trails on the mountain that are essentially abandoned, lifts no longer open on time, employee morale is at a serious low, staff shortages, zero consistency or haste in foodservice, the list goes on. But hey, there's no such thing as a serious problem when you're paying for them with someone else's money. They could lose every one of their skiers to Hunter or Platty and wouldn't lose a cent of state funding.