Burke's New Owners and New Start (2025)

[thetrailboss]

So, do people think Burke jumps ship from Indy?

Based upon all of the new business and new visitors, I don't see them leaving. From my distant POV it has worked well.

I think that might result in less skier visits. Smuggs is dominated by Chittenden County skiers. Burke isn't exactly easy to get to from Chittenden county. It's not terribly far, but those willing to travel a considerable distance past more snow at Smuggs for Burke will be limited. Just an occasional thing.

Those living in the Montpelier area would be stoked though.

Agreed. I think that the calculus is that both are hardish to commute between, so the net increase in traffic would be minimal.

 

[ceo]

So you as well are blaming Indy for Jay's crowding? A pass that gives a holder 2 whopping days per area (yes, then 50% off a day pass). It may have exposed more to Jay, but it isn't driving the crowds. Maybe the fact Jay has boasted most natural in the country this season? Maybe the fact Jay has done nothing to increase uphill capacity in like 2 decades? Maybe I'm just confused.

I guarantee you Indy is driving a ton of traffic to Jay. It's the flagship Indy resort in the East and is the right size for a weekend trip.

 

[AdironRider]

I thought I remember hearing somewhere that Jay is the most redeemed indy resort for the whole pass, East and West.

There is always a long line of people redeeming whenever I'm there.

 

[Zand]

Yeah I'm not saying it's turning Jay into the new Solitude, but they've definitely had a noticeable uptick in crowds. For the most part they can handle it when all the lifts are running, although it can turn into a shitshow quickly on windy days.

However, from what I understand, Smuggs absolutely cannot handle any more folks on weekends. Granted I haven't been there on a weekend in 20 years so I can't really vouch for the reports myself. I've never dealt with lines there on the few weekdays I've gone. Maybe they can do the Cannon thing with heavy blackouts on weekends.

If Jay and Smuggs are both on Indy, Montgomery will never have rooms available midseason lol.

 

[oldfartrider]

I was at Jay yesterday picking up next years pass and the ticket line was easily 20 people

 

[thetrailboss]

I thought I remember hearing somewhere that Jay is the most redeemed indy resort for the whole pass, East and West.

You did. It was on the Storm Podcast recently.

 

[machski]

I guarantee you Indy is driving a ton of traffic to Jay. It's the flagship Indy resort in the East and is the right size for a weekend trip.

I have no doubt, but one weekend on Indy there and you're done with free days anyway on that pass. So a lot go but if many are using all there days over one weekend, that's a lot spread out through the season.

 

[deadheadskier]

If I were a Smuggs pass holder, I wouldn't want Indy on weekends until at least the Sterling gets upgraded.

If I were full Jay, I wouldn't want Indy on weekends either until the Bonnie gets upgraded.

But I'm also pretty crowd adverse

 

[thetrailboss]

I have no doubt, but one weekend on Indy there and you're done with free days anyway on that pass. So a lot go but if many are using all there days over one weekend, that's a lot spread out through the season.

So anecdotally, in my two extended visits to Burke this season, over Christmas and then in March, if I had $10 for every visitor I met who was, (1) and Indy Passholder, and (2) either en route to or from Jay Peak, then I could retire. There were a few who were going Jay-Burke-Cannon, but the number of folks doing Jay/Burke combo was staggering. I met folks from Michigan, Ontario, Ohio, and other places who were doing a tour. Jay was the common stop.

 

[sull1102]

Indy does also give the discount for a 3rd day so that’s helping add to the Jay Crowd. But they really need to invest in a whole bunch of lift upgrades over the next five years. Bonnie should’ve been upgraded in the last five years to a detach and then the Flyer cannot be an easy lift to keep running with how rare of a model it is and its age. Imagine a nice new bubble that’s a bit more wind resistant on the same line, would be a huge upgrade. The tram is great, but it doesn’t have capacity. It’s similar to how Loon has the worlds smallest Gondi and to balance it out a bit they put in that stunning Kanc 8.

 

[thetrailboss]

Indy does also give the discount for a 3rd day so that’s helping add to the Jay Crowd. But they really need to invest in a whole bunch of lift upgrades over the next five years. Bonnie should’ve been upgraded in the last five years to a detach and then the Flyer cannot be an easy lift to keep running with how rare of a model it is and its age. Imagine a nice new bubble that’s a bit more wind resistant on the same line, would be a huge upgrade. The tram is great, but it doesn’t have capacity. It’s similar to how Loon has the worlds smallest Gondi and to balance it out a bit they put in that stunning Kanc 8.

Bonnie was supposed to be replaced in the early 2010's. Same with Jet. After the Q scandal, and almost 15 years later, they are still standing and now approaching 40 years old.

You're right that the Flyer is literally one of two Leitner HSQ's in the U.S. (IIRC). The other one being in Colorado. I still would expect that Poma would be able to service it as they are Leitner-Poma. Who knows. That lift is 26 years old, and while an update would be good, I'd argue that Bonnie and Jet are a higher priority.

And I doubt that Pacific Group has the bank account to replace or upgrade the Tram anytime soon. Big Sky's Tram was an insane amount of money. Snowbird upgraded a lot of their Tram over three seasons or so. Even then the towers and terminals are basically the same. The Jay Tram is now almost 60 years old and would probably need a Jackson Hole type of wholesale replacement.

You mentioned Loon as an example. Boyne has a real obsession with going big on lifts (Big Sky, Sunday River, Loon, etc.). I don't see Pacific as having tha same obsession.

 

[shawnanigans]

Bonnie was supposed to be replaced in the early 2010's. Same with Jet. After the Q scandal, and almost 15 years later, they are still standing and now approaching 40 years old.

I could be mistaken, but wasn't the plan to replace Bonnie with a 6 (Powerline 6) on a slightly different line. And then the existing Bonnie was going to be moved over to replace the Jet?

Either way a Bonnie and Jet upgrade are long overdue.

 

[thetrailboss]

I could be mistaken, but wasn't the plan to replace Bonnie with a 6 (Powerline 6) on a slightly different line. And then the existing Bonnie was going to be moved over to replace the Jet?

Either way a Bonnie and Jet upgrade are long overdue.

That was one proposal. Bill Stenger initially wanted a HS6 for Bonnie, and a HSQ for Jet.

 

[snoseek]

Wouldn't fixed grips be better with wind?

 

[kbroderick]

Wouldn't fixed grips be better with wind?

Not necessarily. There are a lot of variables, but heavier chairs (eg eight-pack bubble chairs that are heavy) take more energy to move in any direction. I don't know how the math works out on the heaviest available fixed-grip quad chairs versus six- and eight-seat detachable chairs, particularly the mass to surface area ratio of a six-person open carrier vs a bubble, but I've seen bubble lifts handle wind that was too high for nearby fixed lifts.

 

[AdironRider]

I think the jet works as a fixed grip. Bonnie would be nice as a high speed but I don’t think it’s required either. Both currently still seem relatively reliable, despite their age, so I don’t think Pacific replaces them any time soon.

Tram got some money under the receiver, so it should have a decent amount of useful life left.

 

[machski]

I think the jet works as a fixed grip. Bonnie would be nice as a high speed but I don’t think it’s required either. Both currently still seem relatively reliable, despite their age, so I don’t think Pacific replaces them any time soon.

Tram got some money under the receiver, so it should have a decent amount of useful life left.

And depreciation of the capital put in to the Tram is probably several years to go too.

Bonnie needs more capacity on that side. To do that, you pretty much need to go up and Detach 6 seems the route to go today.

 

[AdironRider]

I was there last Sunday, with all of tramside down on a powder day, and never waited more than 15 minutes for the Bonnie or Jet. If I'm Steve Wright or Pacific, I'm not dropping 12-16 million on a detachable six to save maybe 5-7 minutes on my busiest day. I can't see it drawing in more customers just because they have a six pack.

 

[Smellytele]

I was there last Sunday, with all of tramside down on a powder day, and never waited more than 15 minutes for the Bonnie or Jet. If I'm Steve Wright or Pacific, I'm not dropping 12-16 million on a detachable six to save maybe 5-7 minutes on my busiest day. I can't see it drawing in more customers just because they have a six pack.

Lucky you. I waited more than that.

 

[urungus]

A Sunday in the last half of March is not Jays “busiest day”