Views wanted on marriage/monogamy/infidelity

[severine]

IIRC, don't you make out better on federal taxes as single than married? Higher tax bracket filing married.... Granted, if you don't get married, you can't get the other's medical insurance... but there aren't a lot of benefits "on paper."

I may be a bit cynical about marriage right now, but I honestly had doubts about it before I ever got married because I feared exactly what happened in my case. I do believe that if you plan on having kids, it's a good idea, if for no other reason than to be a good example for your children. But then you start getting into why... Because church tells you to? Because that's the ideal portrayed at us? Children should be raised with a mother and a father, that's been proven psychologically. But why should they be married? Deeper commitment? That's not always the case, unfortunately. What makes some people value that commitment more than others? I valued it. I put stock in it. But it didn't work out and now I'm not so sure I would want to make that gamble again.

Just a bunch of meandering thoughts. But I appreciate everyone's perspective. Gives me a lot to think about.

 

[Warp Daddy]

Been in a very happy mariage for 43 years and am no expert but do have some experience professionally with relationship behavior issues mostly in complex organizational behavior arena . Committment is built and nurtured on love AND TRUST

Love AND TRUST grows, matures and develops in a meaningful way when communication is open , respectiful and both partners realize that they are in EACH In a 100/100 commtted realationship with certain expectations .

DifFrences in any EMOTIONALLY INTELLIGENT ( EQ vs IQ) realtionship are to be celebrated. As i've said before on this topic , Communication styles( ONLY 4 basic STYLES and personality types( 16v Difff Personality types ) are maxed when complementery styles are at play . Each "stlye has both strength s and weaknesses and also a strength weakness paradox can often be at play

That said however : each partner can be "educated" as to not only how to "read" the other BUT more importantly how to "flex" their own communication style to meet the needs of OTHERS . This includes not only one's spouse , partner , significant other, children BUT also colleagues friends and the entire spectrum of REALATIONSHIP behavior ( co workers , bosses etc )

Interesting topic Sevie

 

[Moe Ghoul]

Been in a very happy mariage for 43 years and am no expert but do have some experience professionally with relationship behavior issues mostly in complex organizational behavior arena . Committment is built and nurtured on love AND TRUST

Love AND TRUST grows, matures and develops in a meaningful way when communication is open , respectiful and both partners realize that they are in EACH In a 100/100 commtted realationship with certain expectations .

DifFrences in any EMOTIONALLY INTELLIGENT ( EQ vs IQ) realtionship are to be celebrated. As i've said before on this topic , Communication styles( ONLY 4 basic STYLES and personality types( 16v Difff Personality types ) are maxed when complementery styles are at play . Each "stlye has both strength s and weaknesses and also a strength weakness paradox can often be at play

That said however : each partner can be "educated" as to not only how to "read" the other BUT more importantly how to "flex" their own communication style to meet the needs of OTHERS . This includes not only one's spouse , partner , significant other, children BUT also colleagues friends and the entire spectrum of REALATIONSHIP behavior ( co workers , bosses etc )

Interesting topic Sevie

or just be a hermit and live in a cave..........

 

[riverc0il]

There really is not much difference besides social perception between being married and being in a long term committed relationship. S and I bought a house together last year and we have no plans on marriage. Not because we are not committed but we can not think of any reason why we should spend all that money for something we already have, a long term committed relationship that neither of us thinks will end during our life time. A lot of people have a hard time fathoming this situation because of the way society indoctrinates young minds with ideals, norms, and mores about what is proper and right in so called civilized western society, specifically this country.

Looking back at the history concerning the institution of marriage, it is a pretty bleak picture. Especially in the early days in which a ring was essentially ownership and a "don't touch my girl proposition" (still is. any married people out there get upset because their partner forgot their ring or vice versa with a spouse upset that you forgot to put yours on?). Marriage was instituted in a male dominated society so the female historically was forced to change last names (which would be fine for uniformity of convention if that was the intent, but the real intent was displaying male superiority to females, historically... obviously not the case currently in most cases). Then you get into people who are not "allowed" to break a marriage for religious reasons (death till you part, and all that non-sense) especially when women are in mentally or physically abusive relationships. The mental abuse that can go both ways due to a marriage and the manipulation of such can be pretty intense.

But those are all reasons against marriage and mostly from a historical perspective. What I always come back to is asking someone to speak FOR marriage. And anything they say can always apply to couples living outside of marriage. I mean, heck.... would you buy a house with someone you were not marriage too? People ask us how we know we are committed and I just gotta laugh at that.

I think a monogamous marriage is important if you plan to have kids. And if there are kids involved, a cheater cheated on more than just one person.

Indeed, in regards to the cheater cheating on multiple people with kids. Though I think having kids outside of a marriage with a committed person is just as fine as being married. But being committed and united in raising the child, that is required regardless of marriage or no.

In regards to cheating, for those really interested on human motivation on such issues, Wrights' "Moral Animal" is a sensational read which looks into darwinistic explanations for human morality. It deals a TON with issues about marriage or lack there of and cheating and such.

Humans are fallible and we all do stupid things at times. But cheating doesn't "just happen" and is usually a sign of problems in a relationship. Seems like more and more people are trying to work through those issues these days and see a cheat as exposing a problem in the relationship as we are past the "scarlet letter" mentality and a lot of other associated issues with women cheating versus men cheating. Clearly, it is a major sign something is wrong and creates some huge obstacles to regaining trust.

From a personal perspective, I have had two encounters with this situation, both as the unknowning subject of a cheater. In the first case, I was single and had what I later learned was a three week "fling" with some chick who really had a boy friend. I was a little pissed off about that from the perspective of being led on, so that was pretty lame.

The other instance was more interesting. S and I had been together for a few years and I was away at a business conference and out partying with three other fellow manages at a dance club. After the drinks got flowing, I was dancing with one of the co-workers (all in good fun). She reaches up to kiss me, and I am like "Um, WHOA! That's enough!" Clearly a pretty conscious decision even though I was hammered and drunk, it was completely instinct.. didn't even think about it, just pulled away and was like WTF? Talked to her later about it, she's married and unhappy with things, not satisfied with things, etc. And does this sort of thing all the time. She was completely broken up about the whole situation, how she really didn't love the man she was with but didn't feel she could do anything about it. Typical duty bound Irish woman in full stoic yet sad tragedy moment type stuff (sorry for the stereotype, but you know what I mean!). Any ways, we stayed up until like four in the morning just talking. It was a great night. But I doubt it changed much for her though I hope our talk helped.

 

[MRGisevil]

I disagree with all of these posts about people waiting until their 30's to get married. It's stereotypical and an easy cop out to "just blame it on the idiocracies of youth". In fact, most of the people I know with failed marraiges are in their thirties, not twenties, which would leave one to believe that one should not marry until they are in their 40's and have "done all of their growing up".

My views on infidelity? Unnacceptable. If you no longer want to be faithful to the person who committed a life long vow to you, then get a divorce.

My view on divorce? Sometimes it's needed. Perhaps you married for the wrong reason and couldn't take the burden of the relationship any longer. Perhaps the person you married changed. Perhaps there are a laundry list of other reasons why you can no longer stay with the person you commited a lifelong vow to and perhaps you should have thought about that before you got married (unless, of course, your spouse became abusive, neglectful or disloyal and there was nothing you could do about it).

 

[deadheadskier]

And while in the past (yes, while married) I had also thought about it because I felt neglected and unloved, I never acted on it because my marriage and family were worth more to me.

This is what I was referring to in wandering thoughts. For someones thoughts to wander towards other options when they're unhappy in their relationship is completely natural.

 

[deadheadskier]

I disagree with all of these posts about people waiting until their 30's to get married. It's stereotypical and an easy cop out to "just blame it on the idiocracies of youth". In fact, most of the people I know with failed marraiges are in their thirties, not twenties, which would leave one to believe that one should not marry until they are in their 40's and have "done all of their growing up".

I think there are exceptions to the rule no doubt. Some people are quite capable of marriage at an early age. You and Tim appear be such a couple, which I think is great. Heck my parents are High School sweethearts, still happily married in their 60's after tying the not when they were 20 and they really never had any serious problems.

I think if you were to look at the statistics though, people who get married for the first time in their 30's are much more likely to have it last than those who got married for the first time their 20's.

 

[Dr Skimeister]

IIRC, don't you make out better on federal taxes as single than married? Higher tax bracket filing married.... Granted, if you don't get married, you can't get the other's medical insurance... but there aren't a lot of benefits "on paper."

Filing married is the filing status with the least tax being paid. Married filing separately has the highest tax burden. At least that's my experience from when my first marriage was dissolving.

 

[deadheadskier]

I mean, heck.... would you buy a house with someone you were not marriage too?

Yes I would and yes I am in two weeks time. I also hope to marry her one day to.

I am just about the must non-religious person you'll ever meet. In fact, I'll go as far as to say that I truthfully feel that the world would be a better place without organized religion. Throughout history it has created more trouble than good.

I could honestly give a care what marriage means from a historical perspective. I could honestly care less what other people do. If you want to live with your partner for life, have kids etc outside of a marriage, knock yourself out. Do I think getting married to J will strengthen our bond or make it stronger than two partners living together without the husband and wife titles? Absolutely not. Do I still want to do it someday? Yes, because I place a lot of value in the symbolism of saying 'I do'.

Marriage isn't for everyone. That said, I don't think there is anything wrong with having a ceremony to celebrate a life long promise to another individual if you truly believe that you are meant to be. That's how I feel and when it happens, it isn't because I care what a court or a church thinks.

 

[Warp Daddy]

I think there are exceptions to the rule no doubt. Heck my parents are High School sweethearts, still happily married in their 60's after tying the not when they were 20 and they really never had any serious problems.

Similar situation except we met in my 3rd year of college----------Married 2 yrs later i was 22

 

[Moe Ghoul]

Celebrating my 21st year of marital bliss in september.

 

[jack97]

Speaking for myself, I had different priorities and points of view when I was younger. IMO, as men and women grow older, they change; in the way they think, what they believe is important and so on. The test is whether they can change together as a couple.

BTW, I've been with my wife for close to twenty years. She keeps so busy or I'm so preoccupied with my job or hobbies that I don't' have time to cheat on her

 

[riverc0il]

Marriage isn't for everyone. That said, I don't think there is anything wrong with having a ceremony to celebrate a life long promise to another individual if you truly believe that you are meant to be. That's how I feel and when it happens, it isn't because I care what a court or a church thinks.

Excellent thoughts. Though you can still have a symbolic "I do" and a family gathering and a ceremony without actually getting married. Which I have considered having us do because I think those are valid points of merit but they can be had without the concept of marriage.

 

[OldsnowboarderME]

or just be a hermit and live in a cave..........

Welcome to my world .. :lol:

 

[deadheadskier]

Excellent thoughts. Though you can still have a symbolic "I do" and a family gathering and a ceremony without actually getting married. Which I have considered having us do because I think those are valid points of merit but they can be had without the concept of marriage.

would such a ceremony involve a ring?

 

[OldsnowboarderME]

Most of this sounds like I got a good reason for taking the easy way out .. your word should be your bond .. if you can't do that all I can say WTF .. marriage is commitment backed up by the force of law .. society can not function without laws. You can't just do anything you want .. well you can if your willing to pay the price. With no fault divorce doesn't matter a whole lot anymore anyway. Whatever happen to the concept I got your back? All this is starting to pry open closet doors I rather leave shut ..

 

[riverc0il]

would such a ceremony involve a ring?

Definitely not. I still see rings as ownership based and lacking trust. Many women attach too much emotional baggage to rings (some men to, to be fair).

Just to clear up any confusion, I am not anti-marriage nor do I think they are bad things nor do I think that most people engaging in the activity of marriage are doing a harmful thing. Its all good. I just don't see the point, it just doesn't make much sense to me personally once you remove all the norms, ideals, and socialized attachments. Then again, I suppose it is just like any other cultural aspect that has no practical value, and I think culture is good, lol, so I can not wiggle my way out of at least a little irony about my views. ')

 

[deadheadskier]

I think it's been well addressed that most everyone agrees that cheating is wrong. What are people's thoughts on getting past such an event and continuing a relationship if it was one isolated incident?


The reality is that even good people make horrible mistakes. One of my very best friends did. If you were to ask me who I thought of my acquaintances is the most genuine, caring, polite and honest male friend I have, it would be D. My last winter ski bumming in Stowe was spent on the slopes almost entirely with D and his then girlfriend S. They had been together for about three years at this point in time.

Shortly after I left Stowe, D and S left Vermont to move to Colorado where D attended flight school. They lived there for three years and each summer he would return to Cape Cod for a reunion week with the Hyannis Sound, an singing group that he helped found in the early 90's. The week involved renting a house with former and current members of the group, doing performances and a lot of partying all week at the house, which always involved a lot of female fans. D and S had one of the best relationships I had ever seen. No problems between them at all. Well, on the last night of his reunion, D slept with one of these female fans who was down from western mass on vacation and had been hanging around the house all week. D went home completely ashamed of himself for what he had done and at a loss for why he did it. To this day he couldn't tell you why as his relationship with S was great.

Two weeks after he gets home, he gets a call and its the girl telling him she's pregnant and was keeping the baby. She actually wanted D to leave S to be with her, but D was not going to leave S. When I heard about this from D I was FURIOUS and hurt myself. I wanted to tell him that in fairness to S, he should leave her, that he no longer deserved being with such a wonderful girl after making such a shameful decision. It took me a long time to get over the anger I had with him, but he said they were going to work things through, asked for my forgiveness and support.

D and S moved back home to New England as D was not going to be an absentee dead beat father. He gave up his dream of being a pilot and got a job in financial services. For two years they went through counseling and S had to live with D raising his son from this other woman every weekend and D with the guilt of what he had done wrong.

Some how, some way they got through it and married two years after the cheating episode. They just welcomed a daughter of their own into this world this winter. You couldn't find a more picture perfect couple and happy young family. There is no way in hell D would ever cheat again.

Moral of the story, even good people can make horrible mistakes and hurt someone they love deeply. If the love is strong enough though and both partners are willing to work really hard, you can forgive, move forward and rebuild a happy and fulfilling relationship. My two great friends are a perfect example of this being true.

 

[ski_resort_observer]

I've read that the lower divorce doesn't really tell the whole story as there has been a big increase in couples not getting married who have kids, the house...the whole nine yards as if they are married. They don't show up on the divorce stats when they break up, which they do. Civil unions performed in Vermont are also producing civil divorces or not so civil. Do they count in the divorce stats?

Didn't I recently read that Dr Phil's wife has filed for divorce and going for 200m. In this day and age and attitudes I think it's an institution in trouble.

 

[deadheadskier]

Definitely not. I still see rings as ownership based and lacking trust. Many women attach too much emotional baggage to rings (some men to, to be fair).

Just to clear up any confusion, I am not anti-marriage nor do I think they are bad things nor do I think that most people engaging in the activity of marriage are doing a harmful thing. Its all good. I just don't see the point, it just doesn't make much sense to me personally once you remove all the norms, ideals, and socialized attachments. Then again, I suppose it is just like any other cultural aspect that has no practical value, and I think culture is good, lol, so I can not wiggle my way out of at least a little irony about my views. ')

fair enough. I am someone who believes in a ring, but not because of an ownership type feeling. I essentially like all of the traditional symbolism that marriages have minus the BS. I don't care what the law or the church says. I'm in it for her and I, no one else.