Belleayre and NYS Budget Cuts

[SkiDork]

lotsa words.... Too much for my head....

 

[k2 four]

19 days

If it closes where will you ski?

If it partially opens who will stay / go?

These would be the interesting questions and could begin to shed light on the possible economic devastation the area would endure.

Lets just say the mountain partially opens this season and loses 2/3s of its usual crowd. Now lets asume that the mountain will open fully for the 09- 10. How many will return? My guess is that it will take some time to rebuild the visit numbers. How much will that cost?

I'm not sure our race program could operate with 1/3 of the hill open; I have heard that only Super Cheif will run with only trails to the east of Wanatuska for the upper mountain and only 2 trails for the lower area.

Just bitching

 

[Method9455]

Sadly, the answer is that even if it all worked out perfectly tomorrow it is likely their season will be irreparably damaged.

Last season my girlfriend and I had season passes and we stopped for food every time on the way back from the mountain. I put in about 5 days at Belleayre, she put in a lot more since she lives up there (though I don't know how many). Because of everything that has happened we didn't buy passes this year.

Windham is a bit too far I think, far enough that we aren't going to buy passes until we do the drive once anyway. Hunter is close enough but we're not sure if we want to go there on weekends.

Our solution is to buy the big lift card from Hunter ($39 each, 50% weekdays, 25% off weekends) and try going up to Windham and Hunter buying daily lift tickets. If Belleayre is operational we will go there as well. Because we will be buying daily tickets we will go less often, which means less $ in the town. Plus buying tickets we will probably stay longer per day which means we might eat on the mountain so $0 in town.

Not exactly a great thing for any of the economies up there.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

Last year, didn't Hunter and Windham have some deal where you bought three or five days in advance that could be used at both hills for, like, $30/day?

 

[dmc]

Plus buying tickets we will probably stay longer per day which means we might eat on the mountain so $0 in town.

Not exactly a great thing for any of the economies up there.

Whats the diff?
If your spending you $ in Hunter - Windham or Plattekill?

It's still good for the Catskill economy...

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

Sadly, the answer is that even if it all worked out perfectly tomorrow it is likely their season will be irreparably damaged.

Last season my girlfriend and I had season passes and we stopped for food every time on the way back from the mountain. I put in about 5 days at Belleayre, she put in a lot more since she lives up there (though I don't know how many). Because of everything that has happened we didn't buy passes this year.

Windham is a bit too far I think, far enough that we aren't going to buy passes until we do the drive once anyway. Hunter is close enough but we're not sure if we want to go there on weekends.

Our solution is to buy the big lift card from Hunter ($39 each, 50% weekdays, 25% off weekends) and try going up to Windham and Hunter buying daily lift tickets. If Belleayre is operational we will go there as well. Because we will be buying daily tickets we will go less often, which means less $ in the town. Plus buying tickets we will probably stay longer per day which means we might eat on the mountain so $0 in town.

Not exactly a great thing for any of the economies up there.

Hunter and Windham are about the same distance as Belleayre since they are closer to 87..

 

[thinnmann]

Sadly, the answer is that even if it all worked out perfectly tomorrow it is likely their season will be irreparably damaged.

SADLY, probably 98% of the 5 or less day skiers of Belleayre are not even aware of this! SADLY, probably 80% of the 15 plus day skiers of Belleayre are not even aware of this!

Not everybody is into it as much as we are (thankfully, because the slopes would be too crowded). But if they were, maybe there would be more pressure for it to be worked out in favor of Bellayre.

I was in a ski shop last weekend leasing my daughter's ski boots for the winter, and they had no idea Belleayre was in serious straits. You would think people in the industry would have a clue.

So what I am thinking, is that even if it did work out perfectly tomorrow, those people will still show up. Usually the last day to buy season tickets at lower rates for Bell had been November 30. Maybe they will actually have pricing and programs posted by then.

In an email from a BMRA coach, he said to make sure to come to the dry land training on October 25, because "we should know more by then."

 

[millerm277]

I was in a ski shop last weekend leasing my daughter's ski boots for the winter, and they had no idea Belleayre was in serious straits. You would think people in the industry would have a clue.

I've seen this here and on SJ, and a couple internet news headlines. Unless you follow ski forums, or the local papers for NYS closely, I don't think you would have heard about it.

 

[ecc]

Speaking of $$

I've oft read that the median annual household income in Ulster county (where I live) is 40k. This does not lend itself to $60 lift tickets. It's unfortunate that the only way many locals can afford to go skiing is by gov. subsidies - or area freebies. I've enjoyed a few at Windham too. (I admit I'm not good enough to enjoy Hunter ;-)).
ecc

 

[dmc]

i gotta be honest... this whole thing is starting to sound like "chicken little"....

"The sky is falling!"

 

[legalskier]

ORDA Projects and Activities

Despite Fall Colors, ORDA Projects and Activities Indicate Winter is Not Far Away
Sep 26, 2008 - 10:10 AM By AlpineZone News

LAKE PLACID, New York -- The calendar still says September and the Lake Placid area has another three to four weeks to enjoy fall foliage. But Whiteface and Gore mountains and the Olympic Sports Complex in Lake Placid, all managed by the Olympic Regional Development Authority (ORDA), already have winter on their minds.

Gore Mountain in North Creek will install a high speed quad chairlift on Wednesday, Oct. 1, to service the Burnt Ridge section, set to open in December.

The following day, Thursday, Oct. 2, Whiteface Mountain, 10 miles from Lake Placid in Wilmington, will follow suit when 16 towers will be inserted to hoist a fixed grip triple chair servicing Lookout Mountain. This new area will also open to the public in December, and can be accessed from the Face Lift High Speed Quad Chair and the Easy Street trail.

Visitors and residents in those areas will see helicopters circling Gore and Whiteface throughout the day. Installations will begin in the morning, weather permitting.

Later in the winter, Whiteface will host World Cup freestyle skiing with ski cross qualifications on Jan. 18 and the finals on Jan. 19. The North American Alpine Championships return to the Olympic Mountain March 10-15.

Besides a class action, has anyone given any thought to transferring jurisdiction over Belleayre from the D.E.C. to O.R.D.A.? It could never be accomplished in time for this season, but long-term it might be worthwhile looking into. From this article it seems O.R.D.A. is awash in cash, a situation that is severely anomalous with Belleayre's predicament. Why has the pain not been spread evenly throughout the state budget?

 

[MarkC]

Despite Fall Colors, ORDA Projects and Activities Indicate Winter is Not Far Away
Sep 26, 2008 - 10:10 AM By AlpineZone News

LAKE PLACID, New York -- The calendar still says September and the Lake Placid area has another three to four weeks to enjoy fall foliage. But Whiteface and Gore mountains and the Olympic Sports Complex in Lake Placid, all managed by the Olympic Regional Development Authority (ORDA), already have winter on their minds.

Gore Mountain in North Creek will install a high speed quad chairlift on Wednesday, Oct. 1, to service the Burnt Ridge section, set to open in December.

The following day, Thursday, Oct. 2, Whiteface Mountain, 10 miles from Lake Placid in Wilmington, will follow suit when 16 towers will be inserted to hoist a fixed grip triple chair servicing Lookout Mountain. This new area will also open to the public in December, and can be accessed from the Face Lift High Speed Quad Chair and the Easy Street trail.

Visitors and residents in those areas will see helicopters circling Gore and Whiteface throughout the day. Installations will begin in the morning, weather permitting.

Later in the winter, Whiteface will host World Cup freestyle skiing with ski cross qualifications on Jan. 18 and the finals on Jan. 19. The North American Alpine Championships return to the Olympic Mountain March 10-15.

Besides a class action, has anyone given any thought to transferring jurisdiction over Belleayre from the D.E.C. to O.R.D.A.? It could never be accomplished in time for this season, but long-term it might be worthwhile looking into. From this article it seems O.R.D.A. is awash in cash, a situation that is severely anomalous with Belleayre's predicament. Why has the pain not been spread evenly throughout the state budget?

O.R.D.A. Does not want Belleayre. Back in the mid 80's that was considered. After evaluation, ORDA deemed that Belleayre offers no Olympic value.

Relax Belleayre is not going to close. Yes the budget may be cut a million or three but that is the same level that it was at 3 years ago. Every other Catskill resort will be operating on a decreased budget this year. Do not believe the BS you hear in the paper from the people that are afraid of loosing their comped season and private parking spots in front of the Longhourse Lodge. The bottom line is Belleayre is a state park that like every other state park in New York, will operate on a limited budget while the state sorts out their economic crisis.

 

[legalskier]

It's understandable that O.R.D.A. would not want to bring in another area--who really wants to "share the wealth?" But shouldn't such a decision rest with a higher authority, one that oversees the entire state budget? This would provide a better perspective than that of one agency trying to protect its turf. Further, if Belleayre offers no "Olympic value," how does Gore? It's a wonderful mountain for blue cruisers, but the only thing really challenging I've seen is Rumours. Whiteface appears to be first rate, at least the part I was able to see while looking up the mountain. For the two days I was there last season, only the bunny hill was open, then up to mid for a total of three hours. They still were charging full price though; perhaps this accounts for their surplus of cash this year?

 

[thinnmann]

From this article it seems O.R.D.A. is awash in cash, a situation that is severely anomalous with Belleayre's predicament. Why has the pain not been spread evenly throughout the state budget?

O.R.D.A. had to borrow $9.2 million to finish projects:

http://www.lakeplacidnews.com/page/content.detail/id/500462.html?nav=5005

snip---->>>

While some board members questioned the wisdom of adding to ORDA’s long-term debt, others saw it as a necessary step to keep the tourism dollars coming.....

ORDA has been given a directive from Gov. Paterson to trim its budget another 7 percent on top of the 3.35 percent it cut in May. This brings the total amount ORDA needs to save to more than $900,000. ORDA officials do not yet know what form those cuts will take.​

 

[jamesdeluxe]

Has Anyone Read This?

If this went through, the western Catskills wouldn't even need ski-based tourism to save its economy. But given the fortunes that could be made on one hand and the proximity to NYC reservoirs on the other, this would make the fight surrounding the Belleyare Resort look like small potatoes.

It's a long article, but stick with it:
http://nymag.com/news/features/50502/

 

[Geoff]

Can somebody explain to my why Belleayre can't run cash flow positive? Everybody else can and a state-owned ski area has no property taxes to pay, no loans to pay off, and probably has much lower costs for things like liability insurance. You have labor costs to run the mountain and energy costs to make snow and spin the lifts. With the proximity to metro-NYC, you'd think they would have no problem keeping the ski area full.

 

[ed-drum]

Maybe it's like I've stated before. They put in a fixed slow quad then tear it down and put in a high speed detachable a few years later. Why didn't they put in the detachable in the first place? DUH!!!!!

 

[Method9455]

Whats the diff?
If your spending you $ in Hunter - Windham or Plattekill?

It's still good for the Catskill economy...

Doesn't help the people on the access road to Belleayre if we're not there does it? The "Catskills economy" is a nice generalization but these are different people. Otherwise the county wouldn't be fighting the state so hard over this.

But my primary point is that since we don't have season passes now, we will be spending considerably less time ANYWHERE in the catskills. When the marginal cost to go skiing is $0 for the lift ticket and $30 for food and gas, we go a lot. When the marginal cost is $100 for tickets and $30 for food and gas, we are not going to go very much.

And I just can't see myself getting a Hunter season pass because we mostly go on the weekends and that place sucks on the weekends.

 

[MarkC]

Doesn't help the people on the access road to Belleayre if we're not there does it? The "Catskills economy" is a nice generalization but these are different people. Otherwise the county wouldn't be fighting the state so hard over this.

But my primary point is that since we don't have season passes now, we will be spending considerably less time ANYWHERE in the catskills. When the marginal cost to go skiing is $0 for the lift ticket and $30 for food and gas, we go a lot. When the marginal cost is $100 for tickets and $30 for food and gas, we are not going to go very much.

And I just can't see myself getting a Hunter season pass because we mostly go on the weekends and that place sucks on the weekends.

Who ever said that Belleayre was not going to offer season passes?

 

[skidbump]

So far only info is being leaked and it says 1 lift 12 trails no programs being offered.Are you gonna go there?