Belleayre Resort will fail unless scaled back, Catskill Heritage Alliance(NY Catskil

[BenedictGomez]

Belleayre Resort at Catskill Park on verge of final approval
The state Department of Environmental Conservation has completed its review of the proposed Belleayre Resort at Catskill Park and is expected to issue the necessary permits for the project to be built....

If someone doesn't step in quick here and halt this nonsense, millions of dollars of New York State resident's paycheck dollars are going to be flushed down the toilet.

 

[JimG.]

If someone doesn't step in quick here and halt this nonsense, millions of dollars of New York State resident's paycheck dollars are going to be flushed down the toilet.

More reason to stop working and retire ASAP!

I find it amazing that a die hard skier like myself would be so vehemently opposed to state run ski area development in my state. What a total waste of money.

 

[BenedictGomez]

I find it amazing that a die hard skier like myself would be so vehemently opposed to state run ski area development in my state.
What a total waste of money.

Don't worry; it's not like New York State's debt per resident is already among the worst in America.

Oh.........wait........

 

[legalskier]

BG isn't from NY and is against it. I'm not from NY and I'm for it.
I guess we cancel out.

You must be thrilled with all the improvements ORDA is making:

• The Overlook Lodge cafeteria project is well under way. The cafeteria will be getting a new look as the area will be completely renovated. This will help reduce lines, bottlenecks and have better flow.​
• Extensive snowmaking upgrades have started - including a three "zone" water line segregation and adding 25 new Sky Giant Flanged Heads for our snowguns. Both upgrades will allow us to put our low energy snowguns at the top of the mountain.​
• New electric Cameron Turbo Air 3000 compressor.​
• New Piston Bully PB400 winch cat.​
• New fully responsive and adaptive website (to be launched late November).​
• New ecommerce store.​
• A New 120' x 50' structure will be built in the lower area and will be the new home of the rental shop.​
• Kidscamp will be moving to the old rental shop - this move will more than double the inside area of the Kids Zone and will be used for seating and registration.​
• More seating was added in the Overlook Lodge next to the administration office.​
• The Discovery Lodge restroom will be completely remodeled and new tile, flooring, stalls and fixtures will be added.​
• Electrical upgrades.
  
  http://www.belleayre.com/promotions/what's new.htm​

 

[BenedictGomez]

BG isn't from NY and is against it. I'm not from NY and I'm for it.
I guess we cancel out.

You must be thrilled with all the improvements ORDA is making:

• The Overlook Lodge cafeteria project is well under way. The cafeteria will be getting a new look as the area will be completely renovated. This will help reduce lines, bottlenecks and have better flow.​
• Extensive snowmaking upgrades have started - including a three "zone" water line segregation and adding 25 new Sky Giant Flanged Heads for our snowguns. Both upgrades will allow us to put our low energy snowguns at the top of the mountain.​
• New electric Cameron Turbo Air 3000 compressor.​
• New Piston Bully PB400 winch cat.​
• New fully responsive and adaptive website (to be launched late November).​
• New ecommerce store.​
• A New 120' x 50' structure will be built in the lower area and will be the new home of the rental shop.​
• Kidscamp will be moving to the old rental shop - this move will more than double the inside area of the Kids Zone and will be used for seating and registration.​
• More seating was added in the Overlook Lodge next to the administration office.​
• The Discovery Lodge restroom will be completely remodeled and new tile, flooring, stalls and fixtures will be added.​
• Electrical upgrades.
  
  ​

I'm pretty ambivalent about the above actually.

By the way, how much did the above cost, can you post that?

 

[ScottySkis]

It just Bell is grttung all this money inveeted dies anyone really think it oay off in 10 years i wish i could say yes. Put the 4 hills that are still open in the Cats together and still hard to phatom this money paying off in the long end.

 

[RuhiRants]

I live in Pine Hill, just moved here after buying a house a few months ago... This will be great for the area... Jobs, new business, and more tourism... Most of the project is privately funded... The land is being given, which the taxpayer owns, but so what... Improvements to Belleayre are what we are on the hook for, and more trails, better facilities is what it will cover. I'm good with that. It's my home Hill, and I can't wait...

 

[legalskier]

By the way, how much did the above cost, can you post that?

If memory serves, I read many months ago that ORDA was divvying up something like $5M among the three areas but Belleayre would receive the smallest portion (because it's the smallest hill I suppose). I believe Belle was allotted $1M.

I live in Pine Hill, just moved here after buying a house a few months ago... This will be great for the area... Jobs, new business, and more tourism... Most of the project is privately funded... The land is being given, which the taxpayer owns, but so what... Improvements to Belleayre are what we are on the hook for, and more trails, better facilities is what it will cover. I'm good with that. It's my home Hill, and I can't wait...

The jobs definitely will help but I'm stoked because this project will finally pull Highmount out of NELSAP. There's some sweet terrain over there. I'm also glad that the original plans were scaled back to be more environmentally responsible.

It just Bell is grttung all this money inveeted dies anyone really think it oay off in 10 years i wish i could say yes. Put the 4 hills that are still open in the Cats together and still hard to phatom this money paying off in the long end.

Only time will tell, Scotty. The developer does have a track record of success with other projects like the Emerson in Mt Tremper, where VP Biden recently stayed to attend his nephew's wedding.
www.watershedpost.com/2014/joe-biden-attended-nephews-woodsy-wedding-emerson-resort

 

[4aprice]

Makes perfect sense to me that Belleayre should expand west and absorb the old Highmount ski area the same way Cannon has Mitt. If they are going to run a ski area(s) should have done it when Highmount closed 10+ years ago. I'm much more for the rescue of an abandoned area then the cutting of new terrain on the east side. Bell is not huge vert but is a good ridge with nice elevation, pretty good snow, and some fun bump runs, not sure it would ever be more then a day area though. I'm not a huge fan of government run anything and won't get into my thoughts on NYS.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ

 

[JimG.]

I live in Pine Hill, just moved here after buying a house a few months ago... This will be great for the area... Jobs, new business, and more tourism... Most of the project is privately funded... The land is being given, which the taxpayer owns, but so what... Improvements to Belleayre are what we are on the hook for, and more trails, better facilities is what it will cover. I'm good with that. It's my home Hill, and I can't wait...

I understand your enthusiasm. These developments always tout the local economic benefits.

It is far from certain what the overall economic impacts will be.

I do not think a project of this size will pay for itself quickly in whatever currency the people marketing it are using to make it attractive. I am a Hunter passholder. I ski Belleayre 2-3 times per year for some variety. I watched Hunter build their time share hotel and sell it out and then pay off the mortgage roughly 120 days after it opened. The Kaatskill mountain club has been relatively pure profit since. That's the way to invest in ski area development in the Catskills.

That's not going to happen at Belleayre IMO, not quickly.

 

[x10003q]

If Camelback feels it can add 453 units to a ski area that already has 309 units on the mountain and many more units within 5 miles, I think Belleayre will be able to support the first phase - 250 hotel units and 169 2 br fractional share units. I realize that Camelback is adding a huge indoor waterpark, but the mountain is only 166 acres of skiing on 800 vertical feet. Belleayre is currently171 acres on 1400 vertical feet(upper mountain is around 1000vf) and adding Highmount would take the acreage to around 220 acres.

Hunter quickly selling out its time share hotel and paying off the mortgage in 120 days is another example that there is demand for slopeside lodging in the Catskills. The proximity to the NYC metro is a huge driving force.

 

[BenedictGomez]

I understand your enthusiasm. These developments always tout the local economic benefits.

It is far from certain what the overall economic impacts will be.

I do not think a project of this size will pay for itself quickly in whatever currency the people marketing it are using to make it attractive.

And it's always far rosier than the reality, because they need to lie to get the shovels into the ground in the first place.

If Camelback feels it can add 453 units to a ski area that already has 309 units on the mountain and many more units within 5 miles, I think Belleayre will be able to support the first phase - 250 hotel units and 169 2 br fractional share units. I realize that Camelback is adding a huge indoor waterpark, but the mountain is only 166 acres of skiing on 800 vertical feet. Belleayre is currently171 acres on 1400 vertical feet(upper mountain is around 1000vf) and adding Highmount would take the acreage to around 220 acres.

This above seems kindof crazy to me, but we'll see if they have success or not. But one thing Camelback does have to it's advantage is that it's just under 1.5 hours from NYC, in a relatively traffic-free straight shot.

Belleayre from NYC is about a full hour further than that, about 2.5 hours, which is significant - and you're more apt to encounter "problems" from NYC to points north than you are from NYC to points west.

But regardless of whether Camelback succeeds or fails, they will do so with private money. Belleayre will do so with the aid of tens-of-millions of dollars from people's paychecks. That's a big part of the rub.

 

[x10003q]

This above seems kindof crazy to me, but we'll see if they have success or not. But one thing Camelback does have to it's advantage is that it's just under 1.5 hours from NYC, in a relatively traffic-free straight shot.

Driving to Camelback through the Delaware Water Gap on Rt 80 sucks on the NJ side and really sucks though East Stroudsburg on the PA side. There is no way it is 1.5 hours from Manhattan. It is closer to 2 hours.

Belleayre from NYC is about a full hour further than that, about 2.5 hours, which is significant - and you're more apt to encounter "problems" from NYC to points north than you are from NYC to points west.

For an extra 30 minutes (not an hour) you get way better terrain and snow, way less crowds and the option of Plattekill up the road. Getting into NYC sucks no matter where you come from. I lived there for many years.

But regardless of whether Camelback succeeds or fails, they will do so with private money. Belleayre will do so with the aid of tens-of-millions of dollars from people's paychecks. That's a big part of the rub.

Your constant commentary about NYS money is boring and meaningless. NYS cannot sell or lease the area. Should NYS never spend money on an important asset? So far they have failed to even maintain Belleayre, let alone spend the tens of millions you mention. Maybe if they had spent some money the place would be doing better.

 

[deadheadskier]

Outside of visiting a duck farm when I was selling meat, I've spent no time in the Catskills. I found the area incredibly beautiful. It really surprises me that the Catskills aren't a mecca for tourism with their proximity to NYC, the most populous and wealthiest city in the country. It's two hours from the city, yet NYC folk seem to prefer driving further to the Berkshires or Green Mountains.

I don't get it.

Yahoo actually had a photo expo today about all the now defunct grand vacation spots that used to exist in the Catskills.

https://www.yahoo.com/travel/a-look-at-the-abandoned-c1410371850151.html

 

[skiNEwhere]

Maybe something about just getting out of the state? A certain "quaintness" to Vermont?

 

[4aprice]

This above seems kind of crazy to me, but we'll see if they have success or not. But one thing Camelback does have to it's advantage is that it's just under 1.5 hours from NYC, in a relatively traffic-free straight shot.

Oh, I think the hotel will do well and year round too. The waterpark really draws well in the summer. Can the mountain handle the extra traffic is another question. Pocono's definitely get more traffic then the Catskills especially from people who live south of NYC. There's a very healthy weekend scene there during ski season.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ

 

[4aprice]

Outside of visiting a duck farm when I was selling meat, I've spent no time in the Catskills. I found the area incredibly beautiful. It really surprises me that the Catskills aren't a mecca for tourism with their proximity to NYC, the most populous and wealthiest city in the country. It's two hours from the city, yet NYC folk seem to prefer driving further to the Berkshires or Green Mountains.

I don't get it.

Yahoo actually had a photo expo today about all the now defunct grand vacation spots that used to exist in the Catskills.

https://www.yahoo.com/travel/a-look-at-the-abandoned-c1410371850151.html

New York squashes anything that try's to get going there.

Alex


Lake Hopatcong, NJ

 

[deadheadskier]

Maybe something about just getting out of the state? A certain "quaintness" to Vermont?

Maybe. I have no idea as I'm not a New York City area resident.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Driving to Camelback through the Delaware Water Gap on Rt 80 sucks on the NJ side and really sucks though East Stroudsburg on the PA side. There is no way it is 1.5 hours from Manhattan. It is closer to 2 hours.

I lived in Manhattan for a decade until last year; it's 1.5 hours to the Poconos on the nut.

This, of course, assumes it doesnt take you 17 years just to get out of the city, but that can happen whether you're heading West (Poconos) or North (Cats).

For an extra 30 minutes (not an hour) you get way better terrain and snow, way less crowds and the option of Plattekill up the road.

There's something extraordinarily important that you're completely discounting. The average NYC Pocono skier generally doesn't give a ratz behind about the above things you mention. Camelback and Belleayre don't cater to hard-core skiers longing for challenging black diamond runs. Lets face it, if they were serious skiers they probably wouldn't be skiing in the Poconos to begin with. And if you're a serious skier heading to the Cats, you'd likely hit any of the other 3 options rather than skiing Belleayre.

Your constant commentary about NYS money is boring and meaningless. NYS cannot sell or lease the area. Should NYS never spend money on an important asset? So far they have failed to even maintain Belleayre, let alone spend the tens of millions you mention. Maybe if they had spent some money the place would be doing better.

Maybe if the government got out of the way and didnt run ski areas they'd be doing better? Maybe if the NY State run ski areas didnt have some of the highest operating expenses in the industry, completely fueled by the fact it's government run, they'd be doing better? I guarantee you Gore would do better. Belleayre loses money year-after-year, and invokes unfair anti-competitive practices against the other privately run ski areas in the Cats, but sure, lets parachute big bags of money in on top of it. That's the cure-all. Did you read the independent audit that recently came out? It's 1-part financial horror story, 1-part trainwreck, and 1-part you just have to laugh.

I've spent no time in the Catskills. I found the area incredibly beautiful. It really surprises me that the Catskills aren't a mecca for tourism with their proximity to NYC, the most populous and wealthiest city in the country. It's two hours from the city, yet NYC folk seem to prefer driving further to the Berkshires or Green Mountains.

The Catskills thrived in the 50s and 60s; I don't know what happened to make it's dominance so dramatically die off, but I'm sure some of the local posters could explain. My guess is the Eisenhower Highway System was a big factor, making it easier to get farther from NYC, but that's just a guess. That said, the Cats are still hugely popular for folks from the city, but I know what you mean.

 

[legalskier]

For an extra 30 minutes (not an hour) you get way better terrain and snow, way less crowds and the option of Plattekill up the road.

I only agree with you about the crowds. As far as snow quality goes, Platty's issues are well known. Terrain is in the eye of the beholder- Platty's steeps are more sustained, but those who knock Belle's terrain aren't bothering to look too hard, imho. Lots of cool stashes there. The resurrection of Highmount will add more sustained steeps.