Better deal this weekend: SR vs K-Ton

[riverc0il]

If you're that fixated on price, the best deal is to stay home. Neither resort will offer enough variety to last you all day. Both will offer a good product, but it is what it is.

I also determined both resorts were priced too high for their product. Instead of staying home though, I went to Jay and skied man made for free. Probably should have stayed home though as the snow had not set nor warmed up as I had hoped it might have. :roll:

 

[Rogman]

Killington was excellent top to bottom yesterday. Mt ops did a great job on the lower Mt. This time they really did under promise and over deliver.

 

[Puck it]

Killington was excellent top to bottom yesterday. Mt ops did a great job on the lower Mt. This time they really did under promise and over deliver.

The top was excellent. The bumps were soft. Upper east fall was hard.

 

[thetrailboss]

$49 to ski the glad triple is outrageous in my mind. First day up there isn't worth that price.

That said I did catch opening day in '03 or '04 that was in October when they got a 2 foot dump and it was absolutely OFF the HOOK! We've talked about that day before on here.

$49 IMHO is a reasonable price and the typical market price for such. FWIW last season, with essentially the same terrain open, Killington wanted $65 per person IIRC. SB usually charges $49 or so for the first few days when little is open.

Another thing to consider is the exorbiant cost of snowmaking. Killington said, that to open, they made snow for 90 hours. A Killington critic stated that their snowmaking costs upwards of $5,000 per hour when you factor in labor, equipment, electricity/diesel, and other materials. So that means they dumped roughly $450k. Now this amount may be lower, but it is in the $100's of thousands. With that in mind, don't you think the resort needs to have a pricepoint that allows them to recover some of their money? What price would you pay?

 

[Rambo]

$49 IMHO is a reasonable price and the typical market price for such. FWIW last season, with essentially the same terrain open, Killington wanted $65 per person IIRC. SB usually charges $49 or so for the first few days when little is open.

Another thing to consider is the exorbiant cost of snowmaking. Killington said, that to open, they made snow for 90 hours. A Killington critic stated that their snowmaking costs upwards of $5,000 per hour when you factor in labor, equipment, electricity/diesel, and other materials. So that means they dumped roughly $450k. Now this amount may be lower, but it is in the $100's of thousands. With that in mind, don't you think the resort needs to have a pricepoint that allows them to recover some of their money? What price would you pay?

It seems the biggest cost in making snow is the cost of Electricity to run the huge water pumps, air compressors. $5,000 an hour to run 200 snow guns = $25.00 per hour per gun.

 

[Geoff]

It seems the biggest cost in making snow is the cost of Electricity to run the huge water pumps, air compressors. $5,000 an hour to run 200 snow guns = $25.00 per hour per gun.

Diesel fuel to run the air compressors has to be the dominant cost.

 

[Vortex]

Sr came close to having barker. They did not make snow on jim's whim to tie jungle road in. looks like jungle road could have opened as well as ectacy. Right stuff looked covered up top, but at the base there was very little snow.
T2 and upper punch were in great shape, lower punch was good to rockingchair. It was still ok to the base of right stuff. Thin the rest of the way down, but more coverage down low than any other day this year. SR was the best its been this year. Sounds like K opened well. Good for skiers and riders at both places.
left early to watch the Pats on my couch.

 

[riverc0il]

Another thing to consider is the exorbiant cost of snowmaking. Killington said, that to open, they made snow for 90 hours. A Killington critic stated that their snowmaking costs upwards of $5,000 per hour when you factor in labor, equipment, electricity/diesel, and other materials. So that means they dumped roughly $450k. Now this amount may be lower, but it is in the $100's of thousands. With that in mind, don't you think the resort needs to have a pricepoint that allows them to recover some of their money? What price would you pay?

However, this is base building for the season so pricing should be based on the product not on having early season skiers pay for all of the early season snow making. Killington could charge full price early season and not recoup early season snow making. Now a resort that did not blow for base building and had an entire trail pretty much blow out on them had only charged $25 for October and $39 for this past weekend.

Me thinks that the high price points this past weekend (compared to product offered) were in fact an effort to reduce visitor numbers while maximizing margin. Which is fine and sound. ASC showed that you can't make ends meet by under valueing your product and then the masses that a cheap ticket bring lead to crowds and inferior product.

 

[Newpylong]

1 - who are you to judge what they should charge?

2 - It's a little hard to categorize a push to open in very marginal temps on 2 or 3 trails as base building. Once temperatures come down they can do all the "base building" they wish, and for far cheaper. I think they charged what they believed to be fair as far as recouperating their expenditures for being open at this time. It was cheaper than last year, and if the early season skiers shouldn't pay for the EARLY season snowmaking then who should?

However, this is base building for the season so pricing should be based on the product not on having early season skiers pay for all of the early season snow making. Killington could charge full price early season and not recoup early season snow making. Now a resort that did not blow for base building and had an entire trail pretty much blow out on them had only charged $25 for October and $39 for this past weekend.

Me thinks that the high price points this past weekend (compared to product offered) were in fact an effort to reduce visitor numbers while maximizing margin. Which is fine and sound. ASC showed that you can't make ends meet by under valueing your product and then the masses that a cheap ticket bring lead to crowds and inferior product.

 

[bigbob]

Was told today by an Ambassador that it cost $60K to make snow from the bottom of the North Ridge Triple to the K 1 base.

 

[Highway Star]

Was told today by an Ambassador that it cost $60K to make snow from the bottom of the North Ridge Triple to the K 1 base.

That's a realistic figure. Assuming they made 20 to 30 acre ft of snow on that stretch, that's $2k to $3k per acre ft, which is a typical cost for snowmaking in marginal temps where lots of air is used.

The $5k per hour I threw out in a previous thread was simply a ballpark figure for what I thought they were doing at that point in time. Consider at full air and water output they are pumping 12,000 GPM at high pressure and have 20+ VERY LARGE compressors running.......making 4 acre ft per hour. So, call it around $10K+ per hour maxed out.

Costs go way down in cold temps where almost no air is used, under $1k per acre foot.

Considering they blow roughly 3,000 acre ft per year, their snowmaking budget is around $5M+.

 

[Rogman]

That 60K number was all over the mountain, so presumably it came from Nyberg. I question the wisdom of leaking it to the public. Operating costs of privately held companies are generally held pretty close to the vest. Sure, I have a morbid interest, but it isn't relevant to my decision making. Regardless, it was a good business decision to open, even if the numbers doesn't look so hot on a simple balance sheet. Longer term, it hints at an interest in exploring a less expensive opening strategy, having already determined that not opening at all isn't a workable approach.

 

[Highway Star]

That 60K number was all over the mountain, so presumably it came from Nyberg. I question the wisdom of leaking it to the public. Operating costs of privately held companies are generally held pretty close to the vest. Sure, I have a morbid interest, but it isn't relevant to my decision making. Regardless, it was a good business decision to open, even if the numbers doesn't look so hot on a simple balance sheet. Longer term, it hints at an interest in exploring a less expensive opening strategy, having already determined that not opening at all isn't a workable approach.

That figure is no secret to anyone who knows snowmaking in detail. It's clear that they were using K3000 snowguns at marginal temps, with lots ($$$) of air, which leads to a cost of $2k-4k per acre ft....and it's not hard to figure how many acre ft they made.

I think what's more interesting, is if that $60K to blow the lower route yearly (once? twice? 3x?) in marginal temps to get open is worth it in revenue vs. a more efficient solution like an upper mountain lift.

BTW I heard an interesting rumor about a midstation on the K-1 for next year. It would be for downloading, just a platform at the high traverse crossover. Presumably, you would ski over from the glades triple, climb up the stairs, and they would slow it down so people could load. Not cheap, because it would have to be good sized set of stairs and deck, but probably less than $60k.

 

[deadheadskier]

BTW I heard an interesting rumor about a midstation on the K-1 for next year. It would be for downloading, just a platform at the high traverse crossover. Presumably, you would ski over from the glades triple, climb up the stairs, and they would slow it down so people could load. Not cheap, because it would have to be good sized set of stairs and deck, but probably less than $60k.

Not a full station where the gondola detaches to a separate line, but just a deck for people to load, unload from with the lift running at a dramatically low rate of speed? Interesting concept. I don't think I've ever seen something like that on a Gondola, only on chairs. I would think the cost to be much higher than 60K as they would have to have a full control station to stop the lift in the event of an emergency.

 

[TheBEast]

Not a full station where the gondola detaches to a separate line, but just a deck for people to load, unload from with the lift running at a dramatically low rate of speed? Interesting concept. I don't think I've ever seen something like that on a Gondola, only on chairs. I would think the cost to be much higher than 60K as they would have to have a full control station to stop the lift in the event of an emergency.

The skyeship at Killington has a mid-station......but retro fitting on on the K1 would be interesting.......Is that really a feasible option? Doesn't seem to make sense to me.

 

[deadheadskier]

The skyeship at Killington has a mid-station......but retro fitting on on the K1 would be interesting.......Is that really a feasible option? Doesn't seem to make sense to me.

Yes, but doesn't the skyeship detach? I think HWS is talking about a mid-station like a normal chairlift mid-station where the lift does not detach.

If it was a full on mid-station with detach like Skyeship, I would place the cost way, way, way above 60K. I know nothing about lift infrastructure costs, but I would have to imagine the cost of a full service mid-station would exceed a million.

 

[Riverskier]

It seems like there is a lot of discussion about value in relation to the amount of open terrain. I simply don't look at it this way for very early season skiing. This time of year you are paying for the priviledge to ski. Early openings require significant resources, and regardless of what a mountain charges for a day ticket, they will not make it back in ticket sales. However, I do believe there is the additional marketing benefits from opening early, as well as increased lodging and seasons pass sales. Bottom line, if you are looking to maximize your value in relation to terrain offerings, early season will never be for you. For some people though, the chance to make some early turns after a long offseason is priceless!

 

[TheBEast]

Yes, but doesn't the skyeship detach? I think HWS is talking about a mid-station like a normal chairlift mid-station where the lift does not detach.

If it was a full on mid-station with detach like Skyeship, I would place the cost way, way, way above 60K. I know nothing about lift infrastructure costs, but I would have to imagine the cost of a full service mid-station would exceed a million.

Yeah that's a full-on detach midstation on the Skyeship, but since the K1 is so fast I find it hard to think about doing it any other way. That would be pretty hard to cram 8 people out of gondola at full speed! Oh well......best to just wait and see on these kinds of things. I'd rather see them put in either new lifts accessing new terrain or updating some of the older lifts vs a mid-station on the K1 concept. just my 2 cents.

 

[deadheadskier]

I think the idea is that you run the lift at 'loading' speed. Yes, it would take a very long time to get up and down, but the thought is that you'd only do that at the beginning and end of the day. Most of the time you'd be skiing off of the Glades lift.

 

[Rogman]

Stage 1 and stage 2 of Skyeship are 2 completely separate lifts that can be operated independently. When both stages are running the cars come off off one and go onto the other.

I'm skeptical that stopping the K1 lift and loading each car at a midstation is viable. It sounds like an excruciatingly slow process, there may be safety issues as well. However, it may be a good short term solution.

The K1 is an expensive lift to operate, in terms of manpower, energy, as well as maintenance cycles. A viable "upper mountain only" strategy can't rely only on just the Northridge triple. It doesn't have the uphill capacity to justify opening for the amount of snow they have to blow. Long term, need a second lift parallel to the K1, running part way down Cascade 700 feet or so. Open on that, expand into the Glades.

It isn't a question of whether opening early is financially viable by itself, because it isn't. However, it is the type of investment that they have to make if they want to be one of the elite North American resorts, and if they want to sell their real estate in the village. Calculating the real ROI is a rather complex equation.