small suv good in snow

[Whitey]

Buy yourself a 4 door toyota tacoma, put a cap on the back, some decent tires, and about 3-400 lbs of sandbags in the back when it snows. And then never worry about getting anywhere, anytime, in any conditions ever again. Best ski trip vehicle ever.

I am on my 3rd Tacoma, each one went well over 200K miles with nothing much more than tires, brakes, and maintenance.

 

[Smellytele]

Buy yourself a 4 door toyota tacoma, put a cap on the back, some decent tires, and about 3-400 lbs of sandbags in the back when it snows. And then never worry about getting anywhere, anytime, in any conditions ever again. Best ski trip vehicle ever.

I am on my 3rd Tacoma, each one went well over 200K miles with nothing much more than tires, brakes, and maintenance.

No issue with a rotting frame?

 

[cdskier]

Your reply motivated me to dig deeper. The Pilot only got Acura's AWD system with torque vectoring starting with the 2016 model year. Prior years are probably less capable.

Makes sense...his Pilot is probably about 2-3 years old.

 

[dlague]

I watched the video , interesting.
Find it odd that they tested on snow with all season tires but yeah I know they all had all season.

And not all All season tires handle well in deeper snow that was on the test course.

Before my Toyotas I owned all Chevy trucks until the gas prices went through the roof. I plowed for years..... I get it.
Last truck was a Chevy HD crew cab
It was unstoppable in the snow. Great plow truck and the best tow vehicle I ever owned. Yup there's no substitute for a full size Chevy. That I totally agee with.



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I have never bought snow tires for my truck or car. For that past 5 years I was driving a Chrysler Aspen (glorified Durango) and I used All Season tires. I have driven in the worst storms even up Bolton Valley's road while vehicles of all types like Audi, VW, Subaru, Honda CRV, some pickups and others were all spinning on all four sliding sideways down the road when trying to drive up. My SUV never flinched, I had all season tires. We then proceeded to drive to Jay Peak to ski there the next day in almost white out conditions.

The moral of this is - my truck weighed about 6000 lbs. The weight alone helps a lot. My truck also had wide tires which I also think helped as well. Having the option to have not only AWD with traction control but to have locking options both high and low 4WD is huge as well. That truck m=never failed me in any condition wet slush, snow over ice, deep snow etc. I know this vehicle is not in the scope of small to mid sized but the point is the bigger they are the harder they fall. BTW, the truck before that was an Expitition which also did extremely well, both were gas hogs (the main downside).

I think the smaller SUV's while they have the features are not heavy and they often do not have the clearance which is a concern of mine. That being said, my truck died with 335,000 miles and we recently bought a used Audi A6 AWD. I will be curious to see how that works in snow but we are also looking at a small/mid sized SUV as a second car. So I will be interested in what is discussed. I think my bar is high due to my last SUV.

 

[deadheadskier]

Wide tires goes against conventional wisdom. Most snow tires tend to be slightly narrower than all seasons. That combined with the siping gives snows a better chance of cutting through the snow and reaching pavement instead of going over the top of the snow. Not doubting your experience, just explaining the physics.

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[Smellytele]

Wide tires goes against conventional wisdom. Most snow tires tend to be slightly narrower than all seasons. That combined with the siping gives snows a better chance of cutting through the snow and reaching pavement instead of going over the top of the snow. Not doubting your experience, just explaining the physics.

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I have read that narrow tires are better as well. More pressure per sq inch on the road.

 

[Jully]

I've always thought that snow tires were more important for stopping and turning in snow as opposed to initial pickup where weight and AWD are more important. Somewhere along the line I've heard the phrase that AWD doesn't influence much beyond 10mph in snow conditions, its weight and tires after that. I'd be interested to see how the heavier cars and trucks stop without snow tires. Weight can definitely be a substitute for good tires in most situations though, not disputing that!

 

[yeggous]

I've always thought that snow tires were more important for stopping and turning in snow as opposed to initial pickup where weight and AWD are more important. Somewhere along the line I've heard the phrase that AWD doesn't influence much beyond 10mph in snow conditions, its weight and tires after that. I'd be interested to see how the heavier cars and trucks stop without snow tires. Weight can definitely be a substitute for good tires in most situations though, not disputing that!

Queue the video:

 

[billski]

I drove an Audi A6 from 2007 until last spring. Winter snows on it. The awd/tire combo was awesome in the snow AND ice, but the low clearance killed me once I started driving down dirt roads in the springtime and bottomed out in the mud. Very close to needing a tow. The repair bills got too much, so for half the price I got a Subaru Forester.

Subaru was my first new car in '80. Subaru made one vehicle back then a station wagon with two trim levels. Phil & Steve Mahre drove one since Sub sponsored the USST. I remember well the time we drove from Boston to LLBean with 12" unplowed on I-95. It just chugged along.

I then went into an anti-SUV war, and owned Saab, Toyota Avalon, Sienna minivan, all front wheel drive. All were acceptable with snows on highway driving. No backroads Started having problems with these when my friend built a house at the top of a steep and very long (over a mile) dirt road.

We'll see what the Forester brings this winter and spring. I bought it for it's clearance, utility, size, mpg and reliability. I use it all the time in my forest work on dirt/muddy roads and am pleased with it. It's a vehicle you don't mind getting dirty, either inside or out. It's mostly just me myself and I in it, so I wanted small-ish, to reduce my emissions and conserve fuel.

I have a hard time going out in the wintertime these days without heated seats. The Forester has so much visibility and a mega-big sunroof, that it makes me feel like I'm outdoors all the time.

 

[billski]

Somewhere along the line I've heard the phrase that AWD doesn't influence much beyond 10mph in snow conditions, its weight and tires after that. I'd be interested to see how the heavier cars and trucks stop without snow tires. Weight can definitely be a substitute for good tires in most situations though, not disputing that!

I can attest that AWD is very useful when you get all four tires stuck in the mud or uneven surface.

AWD has good acceleration from a standing stop on slippery surfaces.

 

[billski]

In forgot to mention...
Ground clearance is a big factor that goes a long way to explaining all those test results and rankings. The Subarus and larger SUVs have a higher clearance. I made sure the Santa Fe had a bit higher clearance than the Forester when I have shopping. Clearance does not make a big difference on slick it snow-packed pavement but matters a lot of unplowed driveways.


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Ground.clearance.is.7.3.on.the.SantaFe.and.8.7.on.the.subaru.bought.a.subu.based.partly.on.this

 

[ironhippy]

I liked my old 4wd trucks that would run in 2wd.

I would drive around in 2wd, the back end would slide when it was slippery. This would allow me to really get a feel for how slippery the road is. Accelerate too quickly? start to spin, therefore you know you need to be extremely cautious.

It keeps me on my toes. I feel like the AWD technology (or even 4wd if you just turn it on blindly) disconnects you from the conditions a bit. You step on the gas, the vehicle goes straight. This is great until you need to turn or stop suddenly. Without the technology I have a pretty good idea of how slippery the corners are and how much room I need to stop.

If the conditions are bad enough that I need to put it in 4wd, then I am not going fast (and no one else is on the road). This only happens in extreme ice or when there is more then 6 inches on the road unplowed.

Also I am cheap and an old truck costs a lot less than a new one.

 

[yeggous]

Ground.clearance.is.7.3.on.the.SantaFe.and.8.7.on.the.subaru.bought.a.subu.based.partly.on.this

My Santa Fe is a 2011 which on paper has 8.1 inches vs Forester 8.7. But the reality is different as the paper clearance is the absolute minimum height of any piece of the car. That is a good number if you are worried about going over rocks, but snow is softer. Because snow moves a bit, its more important to have an higher average clearance underneath the car.

Forester:
http://i976.photobucket.com/albums/...Premium/STicat-backinstall_-4_zps4d31c830.jpg
With the Forester being a smaller vehicle, you'll see that its bottom on average sits lower and will create a good amount of drag against deep snow.

Santa Fe:
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff16/bilalgtp/DSC01443.jpg
The Santa Fe has a much higher undercarriage on average. You'll see this exemplified by the under-mounted spare tire, whereas the Forester tire is in the "trunk".

The minimum ground clearance is practically fixed at the radius of the tires. Higher clearance requires larger and more expensive tires.

With an on average higher undercarriage, the Santa Fe will have less drag in deep snow. The Forester would be a bit better for clearing rocks with it's half inch higher minimum clearance. To see this point exemplified, my 2016 Chevy Silverado 4x4 has an 8.2" paper ground clearance. The 2011 Silverado had a 7.7" clearance. If I pulled that truck up next to a Forester there would be no question which would have more trouble in deep snow as most of the Silverado sits much higher off the ground.

 

[JDMRoma]

Queue the video:

So basically AWD isn't as important as good snow tires.
AWD will get you moving but won't help in maneuvering in deep snow which basically throws out the test you posted before as they were all on All Season tires.

Put all on the same snow tires and run the test. That's the only way to compare apples to apples.




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[yeggous]

So basically AWD isn't as important as good snow tires.
AWD will get you moving but won't help in maneuvering in deep snow which basically throws out the test you posted before as they were all on All Season tires.

Put all on the same snow tires and run the test. That's the only way to compare apples to apples.




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I have to think the relative results will be similar if all vehicles are on snow tires. Unfortunately a large majority of SUV owners run all season tires. That is most representative of the typical user experience.


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[Whitey]

No issue with a rotting frame?

2nd one. Toyota bought it back for $1500 more than I had paid for it used over 7 yrs earlier. I put 70K on that thing and they gave me more than I paid for it plus a bunch of incentives to but another one.

Drove a fully loaded, brand new 4 door Tacoma off of the lot for about $13K after I threw them the keys to my POS 10 yr old truck (that I was thinking about getting rid of anyway).

1st one had some rot, but it wasn't bad. Gave it to a welding shop and they cut the rotted section out & welded some scabs on it for about $500. I didn't have too much of an issue with that. The truck had about 180K miles on it at the time I got the welding done and it lasted for about another 6 yrs and 50K miles after that. Drove it to the junkyard under it's own power. . . Junkyard gave me $200 for it.

 

[Jully]

I have to think the relative results will be similar if all vehicles are on snow tires. Unfortunately a large majority of SUV owners run all season tires. That is most representative of the typical user experience.


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I've always been amazed by how much confidence gets placed in all season tires. They're more of an average between summer tires and winter tires... not the best of both.

 

[ironhippy]

1st one had some rot, but it wasn't bad. Gave it to a welding shop and they cut the rotted section out & welded some scabs on it for about $500. I didn't have too much of an issue with that. The truck had about 180K miles on it at the time I got the welding done and it lasted for about another 6 yrs and 50K miles after that. Drove it to the junkyard under it's own power. . . Junkyard gave me $200 for it.

Toyota has been "doing right" for the frame problem as far as I can see.

1996 - 2000 Tacomas
- if the frame failed, Toyota bought the truck back from you from 1.5 the blue book value. Truck is sent to a junk yard (there is pick and pull by me that has all the failed Tacomas from my city).

2000 - 2004 Tacomas
- if the frame failed, Toyota would replace the frame (and anything that fell or needed to cut off the frame) for you. If you wanted any new parts put on the new frame, Toyota would do that free of charge (you had to pay for the part).

2005+ Tacomas
this is the 2nd generation, from 2005 - 2009 the frames were from the same bad source as the previous generation. Toyota is currently replacing any of those frames that fail.


I just sold my 2002 Tacoma that received a new frame in 2012. It was a great little truck and if it had 4 doors I would still have it. I am currently driving a 2005 4Runner.

 

[mister moose]

Wide tires goes against conventional wisdom. Most snow tires tend to be slightly narrower than all seasons. That combined with the siping gives snows a better chance of cutting through the snow and reaching pavement instead of going over the top of the snow. Not doubting your experience, just explaining the physics.

"wide" is an incomplete description. It's aspect ratio. A big trend in cars lately is to equip them for good summer performance on low profile wider tires. Whereas 75 series used to be the norm, it's common to see 50 series as factory equipment now. Even 40 series on sporty models. Great for handling. Horrible for snow. The 2016 Forester comes with a 17" wheel fitted with 60 series Geolanders. This is NOT a good snow set up. With most cars, wheel width and wheel well clearance limit fitting a higher aspect ratio tire for the winter. The solution is finding a compatible narrower, smaller diameter wheel that will take a higher aspect tire that will fit in the wheel well.

The other huge difference is rubber compound, not just siping. Snow tires remain softer and grippier in the winter. All seasons are harder at colder temps and behave more like hard plastic than a pencil eraser.

On the Tacoma comment, 4wd beats awd every time. 4wd also keeps the wheels turning even in braking, awd does not, or much less so. However, pickups have a nasty habit of surprising you with a 360 or 720 on a curve. The rear end lets go, and then wants to pass you. If you've never experienced it, trust me, its an eye opener. Seen it in 3 different trucks.

You'll realistically only see the difference driving to the hill in a snowstorm, getting up the driveway when it's unplowed, and getting through the unplowed parking lot at the hill. Many folks don't drive in those conditions. If you do, remember:

Snow tires count.
Higher aspect counts. Get winter wheels with dedicated snows.
4WD counts. Constant no limited slip power to front and back. Static friction beats kinetic friction, ie you don't want the brake to be able to lock the wheel in low traction conditions. (ABS just messes with you then)
Driver skill, more than anything, counts.

After those 4 I'd rank vehicle model choice. (For snow driving, obviously other factors come into vehicle choice)

FYI I drive a 4x4 Ranger and an AWD Forester. Dedicated snows on dedicated rims for both. Superb leg room in the Forester. No issues at 15,000 miles. Excellent crash worthiness. Average mileage has been 29-31 mpg. 6 speed stick.

 

[wa-loaf]

Maybe look into the new VW Golf All Track? I'm assuming it has the same AWD system as Audi without paying for the luxury brand premium.

The new Golf All Track isn't a hatchback. It's a rebadged Jetta Sportwagen with more ground clearance and AWD. I think the base model starts around $26K