Can POWDR/Killington do anything completely right?

dalecaluori said:

And now the complaint is that Killington is closing on Sat May 2 instead of Sun May 3. Does it really matter? Are you expecting a powder day on May 3? It's all slush at that time of year. I would be complaining that Killington's mountain biking only opens on July 4th weekend instead of worrying about skiing in the mud.

Keep in mind that Killington opened early on Nov 2 (I believe) and stayed open during that week despite very warm temperatures.

To me that's unbelievable value to the season passholders. No mountain is perfect, but I think you're doing alright at Killington.

You'll just have to find something else to do on May 3rd.

Dale

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May 2 vs May 3 is not a big deal in the grand scope of the season... but it IS a big deal in the grand scope of that weekend.... the question becomes weather or not I (or anyone) wants to drive up for one day of skiing vs 2 days.

Is it that big of a deal overall to close on a sat vs a sunday? No.... Is it a little annoying? Yes definitely.

And that's kind of the whole deal with POWDR... they have done some OK things, but they never quite seem to get it 100% right.

boston_e said:

May 2 vs May 3 is not a big deal in the grand scope of the season... but it IS a big deal in the grand scope of that weekend.... the question becomes weather or not I (or anyone) wants to drive up for one day of skiing vs 2 days.

Is it that big of a deal overall to close on a sat vs a sunday? No.... Is it a little annoying? Yes definitely.

And that's kind of the whole deal with POWDR... they have done some OK things, but they never quite seem to get it 100% right.

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Yea, it'd be SOO much better if they stayed open until the second thursday after the summer solstice. Why is it annoying? I mean, really...

tcharron said:

Yea, it'd be SOO much better if they stayed open until the second thursday after the summer solstice. Why is it annoying? I mean, really...

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Because Killington is a DESTINATION resort where people come up and stay FOR THE WEEKEND. How many hotels will get business on Saturday night? None, because people will be just heading home if there is no skiing on Sunday. How many people can daytrip to K? Only those people and locals will show up, because no one outside of daytrip range is going to drive up for one day. There's a couple reasonable answers for you...

danny p said:

Because Killington is a DESTINATION resort where people come up and stay FOR THE WEEKEND. How many hotels will get business on Saturday night? None, because people will be just heading home if there is no skiing on Sunday. How many people can daytrip to K? Only those people and locals will show up, because no one outside of daytrip range is going to drive up for one day. There's a couple reasonable answers for you...

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Do you have *any* concept of just how many people are going to go to K for the weekend in April? Most people that WOULD come up would do friday and sat to drive HOME on Sunday.

tcharron said:

Do you have *any* concept of just how many people are going to go to K for the weekend in April? Most people that WOULD come up would do friday and sat to drive HOME on Sunday.

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I've been a passholder there for the last 6 years and bought day tickets the 2 years before that...have skied at K in April the last 8 years...i think I have a concept of April skiing...what's your experience with K?

danny p said:

I've been a passholder there for the last 6 years and bought day tickets the 2 years before that...have skied at K in April the last 8 years...i think I have a concept of April skiing...what's your experience with K?

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I didn't ask what your experience was. What I ASKED was how many paying people are actually THERE on a in May. And using your reasoning, even better, how many people are NOT going to stay a night Sat night because they are not open on Sunday.

danny p said:

Because Killington is a DESTINATION resort where people come up and stay FOR THE WEEKEND. How many hotels will get business on Saturday night? None, because people will be just heading home if there is no skiing on Sunday. How many people can daytrip to K? Only those people and locals will show up, because no one outside of daytrip range is going to drive up for one day. There's a couple reasonable answers for you...

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Killington hotels shouldn't expect business on May 2nd..that's the offseason just about everywhere. The fact that they're staying open until May 2nd is a big bonus over last season..pretty nice..

tcharron said:

I didn't ask what your experience was. What I ASKED was how many paying people are actually THERE on a in May. And using your reasoning, even better, how many people are NOT going to stay a night Sat night because they are not open on Sunday.

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you asked if I had *any* concept blah blah blah. that's why I answered the way I did. I'm done with this though, you win. Congrats!

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:

Killington hotels shouldn't expect business on May 2nd..that's the offseason just about everywhere. The fact that they're staying open until May 2nd is a big bonus over last season..pretty nice..

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while this is true the last couple years, those same hotels historically had May business. For the record, I'm happy there are staying open until May 2nd, more riding for me. I CAN daytrip it, I just know there are lots of people that can't/won't for one day of the weekend. Kinda like how you didn't want to drive all the way to Hunter for ONE day....

danny p said:

while this is true the last couple years, those same hotels historically had May business. For the record, I'm happy there are staying open until May 2nd, more riding for me. I CAN daytrip it, I just know there are lots of people that can't/won't for one day of the weekend. Kinda like how you didn't want to drive all the way to Hunter for ONE day....

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I wasn't happy Killington opened on a Sunday because I drove there for one day of skiing but since it was so early in the season..November 2nd..I wasn't going to miss it..but even die-hards are a bit burnt out by early May..I'm surprised they're not closing earlier to save money..

tcharron said:

Do you have *any* concept of just how many people are going to go to K for the weekend in April? Most people that WOULD come up would do friday and sat to drive HOME on Sunday.

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When the Bear Mountain Mogul Challenge was the 3rd weekend in April, they'd get at least 5,000 people to show up.

When Sunshine Daydream was the first weekend in May and the sun was shining, I'd estimate a couple thousand people showed up. The whole main Killington lot filled and cars were parked down the Access Road. I remember years when they had to scramble to get shuttles to get people up from the Vale and Snowshed lots. You'd see license plates from all over. Tons of Canadians. Season pass people from every other ski area in the northeast were buying day tickets.

If it was crap weather, nobody showed up. ...not that that's a surprise in the ski industry.

The take-away... Killington spent 30 years developing the market for spring skiing. They owned it. Nobody else even bothered trying to compete. It was a continuous party with a planned event every weekend. Les Otten ran Sunday River into May one year and then gave up. It took POWDR one year to destroy the market for spring skiing at Killington. It will take a decade of competent marketing and resort operations to build it back up since they've now trained people to go do other things in April and May.

tcharron said:

Yea, it'd be SOO much better if they stayed open until the second thursday after the summer solstice. Why is it annoying? I mean, really...

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I thought my last post explained that but I guess you have trouble reading or comprehending the concept.

It's annoying because if people are going to drive to Vermont for the weekend they want to ski 2 days. Unless the weather dictates a closing, it makes no sense for them to be open just one of the 2 weekend days.

boston_e said:

I thought my last post explained that but I guess you have trouble reading or comprehending the concept.

It's annoying because if people are going to drive to Vermont for the weekend they want to ski 2 days. Unless the weather dictates a closing, it makes no sense for them to be open just one of the 2 weekend days.

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Actually, when you consider that there is an April 30th cutoff date for their spring season pass sale, it makes complete sense.

I can hear the staff meeting decision process:

"We have to stay open beyond April 30th or we'll get killed on season pass sales."
"OK. Then we'll close May 1."
"That's a Friday. That won't go over well with our customers who all ski on weekends."
"OK. Then we'll close on May 2. All full time staff gets their 30 day unpaid furlough starting May 3."

If you're a bean counter and ops guy, you are focused inwards instead of thinking about your customers. We've all worked with people like this and seen countless examples where this type takes companies down. They're competely myopic and make nothing but reactive decisions instead of developing a viable strategy. They kill companies and it's always a sure sign to sell your stock when the CFO or corporate attorney become CEO. Preston Smith woke up every day thinking about how he could attract more people to Killington. You can love him or hate him but Les Otten had the same basic philosophy. Near as I can tell, POWDR is a bunch of finance and ops people who don't think that way at all. The vision in central Vermont is now 30 minutes south in Ludlow with the Muellers and 60 minutes north with Win Smith. People actually like working at those resorts. People actually like spending their money at those resorts. Killington is experiencing "death by bean counter."

It's times like this that I'm glad I'm a "free agent" (and not a pass holder)...

When that weekend comes, if Killington is announcing a May 2 closing and Sugarloaf is annoucing May 3... can you guess where I will be?

Geoff said:

If you're a bean counter and ops guy, you are focused inwards instead of thinking about your customers. We've all worked with people like this and seen countless examples where this type takes companies down. They're competely myopic and make nothing but reactive decisions instead of developing a viable strategy. They kill companies and it's always a sure sign to sell your stock when the CFO or corporate attorney become CEO. Preston Smith woke up every day thinking about how he could attract more people to Killington. You can love him or hate him but Les Otten had the same basic philosophy. Near as I can tell, POWDR is a bunch of finance and ops people who don't think that way at all. The vision in central Vermont is now 30 minutes south in Ludlow with the Muellers and 60 minutes north with Win Smith. People actually like working at those resorts. People actually like spending their money at those resorts. Killington is experiencing "death by bean counter."

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AMEN to Geoff : This unfortunate condition IS OFTEN the case !

In addition to my career in Higher Education ,I used to do really well as a consultant going into organizations in turmoil after the bean counters had really gone amok focusing on their navels ( downsizing) rather than the needs of their customers and how to best position their product line and people to profitably future their organization .

haha this thread is an epic win

Warp Daddy said:

AMEN to Geoff : This unfortunate condition IS OFTEN the case !

In addition to my career in Higher Education ,I used to do really well as a consultant going into organizations in turmoil after the bean counters had really gone amok focusing on their navels ( downsizing) rather than the needs of their customers and how to best position their product line and people to profitably future their organization .

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This is 2nd hand but Chris Nyberg was at a Killington Ski Club event last night. A friend of mine asked him why they were closing on a Saturday. The answer was that their payroll week goes Sunday to Saturday.

Geoff said:

This is 2nd hand but Chris Nyberg was at a Killington Ski Club event last night. A friend of mine asked him why they were closing on a Saturday. The answer was that their payroll week goes Sunday to Saturday.

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makes perfect sense then