Any Okemo (VT) Condo owners out there? If so, I'm looking for your opinion.

[Mick_Shrimpton]

Hope this is the right place to post this thread.

I'm considering buying a slopeside condo at Okemo. I'm having trouble figuring out the pros/cons of each condo development on the "main" mountain (Winterplace, Kettle Brook, Trailside, Solitude). I'm not interested in a timeshare unit at Jackson Gore.

I'm specifically concerned about ski-in/ski-out access, build quality/maintenance of the buildings, amenities/services, HOA/maintenance fees, rental potential, etc., etc. Looking for some personal experiences, recommendations and advice. Probably looking at a 2 BR/2BA unit.

Thanks in advance,

Ray

 

[Geoff]

I suggest you educate yourself about out-of-state property ownership in Vermont.

Look at the Act 68 state school tax. It creates some fairly stiff property taxes since out-of-state owners are taxed at the commercial rate.

Look at the 1 1/4% transfer tax you pay when you buy.

Look at the tax treatment you receive when you sell. Your sale is not taxed as capital gains in Vermont. It is taxed as regular income. If you make the kind of income most people do who buy slopeside condos, it will be taxed in the top brackets which is 8.9% to 9.4%.

Vermont keeps enacting new taxes on out-of-staters. When you do the analysis, assume it will be worse a decade from now.

 

[deadheadskier]

My folks rented slopeside for 4 years in the mid-80s off the Sachem Trail, one of the older units from the 70s. I was a too young to know anything about build construction / fees all that stuff.

One thing that I think is nice about those units is there's a separate road up there such that you don't have to deal with the access road cluster to get to the units like you do for Winterplace / Kettlebrook etc. Another benefit is the Sachem Quad sees far less traffic than most chairs at the mountain. Kettlebrook you pretty much have to ski down to the base zoo to start your day.

Don't know if you have kids or not, but sledding on the Sachem at night after the trails closed was a total blast.

This was over 20 years ago, but back then and even into the Solitude expansion, they were quick to open up Sachem Trail and it always stayed open until nearly the end of the season. It's also one of the best beginner trails on the mountain, so if you have beginners in your family or with guests, they can literally stay right over on that side of the mountain, enjoy minimal lines on that quad and lap the trail comfortably.

my 2 cents

 

[WWF-VT]

I suggest you educate yourself about out-of-state property ownership in Vermont.

If you are considering buying slopeside at Okemo, then out-of-state property taxes are likely not a big factor in your purchase decision.

 

[Highway Star]

I suggest you educate yourself about out-of-state property ownership in Vermont.

Look at the Act 68 state school tax. It creates some fairly stiff property taxes since out-of-state owners are taxed at the commercial rate.

Look at the 1 1/4% transfer tax you pay when you buy.

Look at the tax treatment you receive when you sell. Your sale is not taxed as capital gains in Vermont. It is taxed as regular income. If you make the kind of income most people do who buy slopeside condos, it will be taxed in the top brackets which is 8.9% to 9.4%.

Vermont keeps enacting new taxes on out-of-staters. When you do the analysis, assume it will be worse a decade from now.

So it sounds like a really bad move.

Where's your ski condo............?

 

[Highway Star]

Hope this is the right place to post this thread.

I'm considering buying a slopeside condo at Okemo. I'm having trouble figuring out the pros/cons of each condo development on the "main" mountain (Winterplace, Kettle Brook, Trailside, Solitude). I'm not interested in a timeshare unit at Jackson Gore.

I'm specifically concerned about ski-in/ski-out access, build quality/maintenance of the buildings, amenities/services, HOA/maintenance fees, rental potential, etc., etc. Looking for some personal experiences, recommendations and advice. Probably looking at a 2 BR/2BA unit.

Thanks in advance,

Ray

Not sure how familliar you are with the Ludlow area, but every time we drive through it we're impressed with how nice some of the houses are and the 4-season potential, off mountain.

 

[deadheadskier]

Not sure how familliar you are with the Ludlow area, but every time we drive through it we're impressed with how nice some of the houses are and the 4-season potential, off mountain.

After my folks rented on mountain, they bought off mountain near Lake Rescue and held that property for 15 years. Even with the lakes and quaint downtown, Ludlow is still very much a ghost town in the summer time.

They're now snowbirds and own in Florida, but rent a house from a friend for the summer in Ludlow. They're golfers and Okemo has a nice course, so they're satisfied. Suppose the same could be said about Killington in Summer. Seems that Manchester and Stowe and Woodstock to a lesser extent are really the only 'hopping' tourism towns during summer in VT.

I'm pointing this out to the OP such that he doesn't get his expectations high for getting rental income in the summer. There are retirees like my folks who do summer there, but I'd venture to say 90% of the units in town if not more are empty during the summer.

 

[Vortex]

I think I pay like $600 a year in taxes for a small slope side in Maine. I think Geoff was getting at the many cost not known clearly.

All cost were an issue to me. Nh and Maine were the only places that worked in my budget.

 

[SKIQUATTRO]

we looked at buying at okemo and some other areas a few years back and decided against it for a slew of reasons including the math at the end of the day...just didnt make sense. I didnt want to get locked into one hill, my kids are growing and once they get involved with winter sports/friends those weekends may dwindle...now we go where we want, when we want and we are still in the green vs owning and not paying mortgage, taxes, utilities when we arent there 6-7 mo out of the year....

 

[Masskier]

For many people it is more of a life style choice. I can't tell you how much we enjoy our slopeside Condo at Burke. The memories that we have as a family far outweighs the cost. Actually, right now is probably the best time there's ever been to invest in a ski condo. Who knows, if you buy right, you may even make money on it someday. check out www.bearpathtownhomes.com

 

[drjeff]

For many people it is more of a life style choice. I can't tell you how much we enjoy our slopeside Condo at Burke. The memories that we have as a family far outweighs the cost. Actually, right now is probably the best time there's ever been to invest in a ski condo. Who knows, if you buy right, you may even make money on it someday. check out www.bearpathtownhomes.com

Agree. The lifestyle isn't for everyone, and many of your non-skiing/riding friends will look at you funny when you basically aren't at your "real" home on weekends from basically Thanksgiving until mid/late April, but it is a lifetstyle that if it fits you is well worth all the miles of driving and mega backlog of "around the real house" projects that build up all during ski season!

 

[Angus]

check out www.bearpathtownhomes.com

Masskier - is this where you bought? Is this the development that was being advertised in the Boston Globe continuously? I've previously questioned the pricing - I'm not particularly familiar with the market for slope side condos but $1mm+ seemed steep. There are several families in our town who have places at Burke and they all love it up there - really all four seasons. A bunch of the kids then seem to migrate to Burke Academy - more $$$$!!

 

[Geoff]

I think I pay like $600 a year in taxes for a small slope side in Maine. I think Geoff was getting at the many cost not known clearly.

All cost were an issue to me. Nh and Maine were the only places that worked in my budget.

The costs are known. The problem is that no realtor is going to tell you about the 1 1/4% transfer tax, the ever-climbing Act 68 state school tax commercial rate, or the fact that when you sell, the state income tax treats it as regular income taxed at a pretty high rate.

When I bought my place, my property taxes were that $600. They're now about $4,200. If I were doing it all over again in Vermont, I'd do a season rental every year. No way I'd ever consider buying vacation home property in the state.

 

[deadheadskier]

Doesn't VT also have an 'anti-speculation' law whereby they nail you if you don't keep your property for at least 7 years? I thought I read they had something like that in place to discourage flipping in resort towns as such practices were driving up values and making homes no longer affordable for locals.

 

[Masskier]

Doesn't VT also have an 'anti-speculation' law whereby they nail you if you don't keep your property for at least 7 years? I thought I read they had something like that in place to discourage flipping in resort towns as such practices were driving up values and making homes no longer affordable for locals.

You are talking about the Land gains tax. It is phased out over 6 years and only applies to the land. So with Condos it is really no big deal in as much they only consider 10% of the sales price to be land.

 

[Masskier]

I suggest you educate yourself about out-of-state property ownership in Vermont.

Look at the Act 68 state school tax. It creates some fairly stiff property taxes since out-of-state owners are taxed at the commercial rate.

Look at the 1 1/4% transfer tax you pay when you buy.

Look at the tax treatment you receive when you sell. Your sale is not taxed as capital gains in Vermont. It is taxed as regular income. If you make the kind of income most people do who buy slopeside condos, it will be taxed in the top brackets which is 8.9% to 9.4%.

Vermont keeps enacting new taxes on out-of-staters. When you do the analysis, assume it will be worse a decade from now.

Real estate property taxes are high in VT. Just got my tax bill today. the non residential (for us out of staters) tax rate in Burke is about $1.82 per $100 of assess value. that includes the state school tas

Closing costs are higher than Ma.

Not sure what you mean by the capital gains tax, The federal rate is 15% and with the state rate of 9.4% that a total of 24.4% That is still much lower than most condo buyers ordinary tax rate and only 4% higher than Ma.

 

[Masskier]

Masskier - is this where you bought? Is this the development that was being advertised in the Boston Globe continuously? I've previously questioned the pricing - I'm not particularly familiar with the market for slope side condos but $1mm+ seemed steep. There are several families in our town who have places at Burke and they all love it up there - really all four seasons. A bunch of the kids then seem to migrate to Burke Academy - more $$$$!!

Yes and Yes, I am the owner/developer of the Bear Path Townhomes. Currently prices start at 695k, That's about 275$ per SF. that is less than 1/2 of what a similar property would sell for slope side at other area's. For example the Bixby house at Jackson Gore (Okemo) is offered today in the $450 to $600 pSF range. Burke is a great area, people are just starting to discover it. The junior race program is recognized as the best program in the US.

 

[stomachdoc]

Yes and Yes, I am the owner/developer of the Bear Path Townhomes. Currently prices start at 695k, That's about 275$ per SF. that is less than 1/2 of what a similar property would sell for slope side at other area's. For example the Bixby house at Jackson Gore (Okemo) is offered today in the $450 to $600 pSF range. Burke is a great area, people are just starting to discover it. The junior race program is recognized as the best program in the US.

No offense to you Masskier, and those Bear Townhomes look absolutely stunning, but buying real estate on Burke Mountain given the very tenuous situation with the ownership of the mountain would be a very risky investment. I agree, potentially one with a huge upside if the plans set out by Ginn ever came to fruition, but, unless someone has so much disposable income that they wouldn't notice a several hundred thousand dollar loss if Burke goes belly-up, then I would seriously advise against it. I say this as a real fan of Burke and someone who truly hopes it survives, but potential investors need to understand the risk.

 

[WWF-VT]

Anyone own slopeside at Okemo that can respond to the original questions from Mick Shrimpton?

 

[UVSHTSTRM]

The costs are known. The problem is that no realtor is going to tell you about the 1 1/4% transfer tax, the ever-climbing Act 68 state school tax commercial rate, or the fact that when you sell, the state income tax treats it as regular income taxed at a pretty high rate.

When I bought my place, my property taxes were that $600. They're now about $4,200. If I were doing it all over again in Vermont, I'd do a season rental every year. No way I'd ever consider buying vacation home property in the state.

I guess I will never look for property in Vermont, especially as a non resident just wanting a vacation property. I had always thought the combinded property tax rate (muni + non residential education) was around $2.10 per $1000 for Killington, guess I will have to go back and recheck that. Granted I have no idea what your place is valued at, but man that is enough to scare me away. It's bad enough living in NH and paying $30 per $1000....well no income tax, that is always nice.