Any Okemo (VT) Condo owners out there? If so, I'm looking for your opinion.

[deadheadskier]

I guess I will never look for property in Vermont, especially as a non resident just wanting a vacation property. I had always thought the combinded property tax rate (muni + non residential education) was around $2.10 per $1000 for Killington, guess I will have to go back and recheck that. Granted I have no idea what your place is valued at, but man that is enough to scare me away. It's bad enough living in NH and paying $30 per $1000....well no income tax, that is always nice.

Though property taxes are high, I have appreciably more disposable income making the same salary living in NH than I did in ME or than I would in VT.

Not only is there no income tax and no sales tax, but I find the cost of goods to be much lower here as well.

 

[riverc0il]

I guess I will never look for property in Vermont, especially as a non resident just wanting a vacation property. I had always thought the combinded property tax rate (muni + non residential education) was around $2.10 per $1000 for Killington, guess I will have to go back and recheck that. Granted I have no idea what your place is valued at, but man that is enough to scare me away. It's bad enough living in NH and paying $30 per $1000....well no income tax, that is always nice.

Don't completely give up on the idea. My perspective would be to find a small shack in the woods not near the mountain. Sure, not slope side. But you could get a nice vacation shack for $100k or less. Since taxes are a percent of value, you just gotta find a cheap place so you don't take as big of a tax hit. I don't know if I would ever go that route. I had planned on doing that in NH before I moved up here. But now I do a lot of skiing in VT at 2+ hours away and it is a long term option for me depending how the finances go.

I don't see the value in slopeside more due to the initial asking price than the taxes. But I think if you can afford the sticker price, the taxes likely won't be much of an issue. $4k per year rolled into monthly payments would be an extra $310/ month or so? Folks looking to purchase a second home (and one slopeside, at that) can likely afford the taxes. I live in a non-ski condo complex that has a LOT of second home MA folks that come up weekends only. It always boggles my mind that what we bought on a stretch, they bought for a weekend get a way that they only use 50 days out of the year. I don't the extra $2k in taxes compared to MA or NH or whereever is really going to make much difference.

 

[Masskier]

No offense to you Masskier, and those Bear Townhomes look absolutely stunning, but buying real estate on Burke Mountain given the very tenuous situation with the ownership of the mountain would be a very risky investment. I agree, potentially one with a huge upside if the plans set out by Ginn ever came to fruition, but, unless someone has so much disposable income that they wouldn't notice a several hundred thousand dollar loss if Burke goes belly-up, then I would seriously advise against it. I say this as a real fan of Burke and someone who truly hopes it survives, but potential investors need to understand the risk.

No offense taken. The reality is Burke has never been in a stronger position. Ginn has been out of the picture for almost 2 years. Burke has been owned since 2005 by a private equity fund out of PA. Ginn was their developer/minority partner. The owner has invested millions to date, not only in infrastructure, but also in the planing, design, engineering, permitting of their master plan. All this has been done with cash and Burke remains debt free with no mortgage. The act 250 process is 99% complete. However I do agree that Investors needs to understand the risks in any investment.

 

[drjeff]

For the most part, buying a ski home/vacation home with the hope that it will be a longterm investment where you'll end up in the black when you sell at some point is going to be a pipedream. Taxes, upkeep, unexpected repairs, etc, etc, etc will more than likely over the course of ones ownership, outpace any appreciation in value and/or rental income (if you decide to go that route). What you can't put a price tag on though is the joy that one can get from being able to "get away from it all" and use their vacation home, family experiences there, etc. And for many vacation home owners, those non-monetary value experiences are far greater than the likely monetary loss that a vacation home owner will see

 

[UVSHTSTRM]

Though property taxes are high, I have appreciably more disposable income making the same salary living in NH than I did in ME or than I would in VT.

Not only is there no income tax and no sales tax, but I find the cost of goods to be much lower here as well.

No I totally agree. I am originally from Maine, then went to school in NH and have stayed ever sense, I think I am going on 14 years now and you could not be more spot on.

 

[UVSHTSTRM]

Don't completely give up on the idea. My perspective would be to find a small shack in the woods not near the mountain. Sure, not slope side. But you could get a nice vacation shack for $100k or less. Since taxes are a percent of value, you just gotta find a cheap place so you don't take as big of a tax hit. I don't know if I would ever go that route. I had planned on doing that in NH before I moved up here. But now I do a lot of skiing in VT at 2+ hours away and it is a long term option for me depending how the finances go.

I don't see the value in slopeside more due to the initial asking price than the taxes. But I think if you can afford the sticker price, the taxes likely won't be much of an issue. $4k per year rolled into monthly payments would be an extra $310/ month or so? Folks looking to purchase a second home (and one slopeside, at that) can likely afford the taxes. I live in a non-ski condo complex that has a LOT of second home MA folks that come up weekends only. It always boggles my mind that what we bought on a stretch, they bought for a weekend get a way that they only use 50 days out of the year. I don't the extra $2k in taxes compared to MA or NH or whereever is really going to make much difference.

No I hear you, I guess my bigger point was that 4200 for Vermont seemed high, but again I don't know the circumstances (house size and the fact that after looking at vermont tax laws they seem soooooo over the top). My wife and I would never buy on mountain or slopeside. We would have something on a pond/lake and start of with just land, then build slowely on it. Most likely it would be NH or Me, but Vt is always a possibility. My wife and I are still young so we are in no hurry. Afterall, living in anyone of these three states you are within an hours drive of a ski resort.

 

[WWF-VT]

For the most part, buying a ski home/vacation home with the hope that it will be a longterm investment where you'll end up in the black when you sell at some point is going to be a pipedream. Taxes, upkeep, unexpected repairs, etc, etc, etc will more than likely over the course of ones ownership, outpace any appreciation in value and/or rental income (if you decide to go that route). What you can't put a price tag on though is the joy that one can get from being able to "get away from it all" and use their vacation home, family experiences there, etc. And for many vacation home owners, those non-monetary value experiences are far greater than the likely monetary loss that a vacation home owner will see

I share your thoughts on this topic. We did the seasonal rental for 5 years at $6000+ per season and always weighed seasonal rental vs purchase costs. At the end of the day we now own a condo at the mountain, can go any time we want and enjoy all 4 seasons in VT. Like the Mastercard commercial says the experience is "priceless".

 

[Glenn]

We like our get away. The nice thing, we have a place to go every weekend; even in the "off season". That's been nice added bonus.

 

[Morewood]

Hope this is the right place to post this thread.

I'm considering buying a slopeside condo at Okemo. I'm having trouble figuring out the pros/cons of each condo development on the "main" mountain (Winterplace, Kettle Brook, Trailside, Solitude). I'm not interested in a timeshare unit at Jackson Gore.

I'm specifically concerned about ski-in/ski-out access, build quality/maintenance of the buildings, amenities/services, HOA/maintenance fees, rental potential, etc., etc. Looking for some personal experiences, recommendations and advice. Probably looking at a 2 BR/2BA unit.

Thanks in advance,

Ray

Hi Ray,

I own at Trailside at Okemo and can say that my rental income is robust. That being said, my unit is direct access to the Sachem trail...I literally open my door click into my skis and I'm on the slope...or I can hike 25 yards and be on the glades peak quad...rental income is all about location at Trailside...some units require a private shuttle to bring you to the trail and some units require a walk across 2 parking areas and the road....Kettlebrook and Solitude are great too..I can answer questions through PM's if you'd like.

 

[mlctvt]

For the most part, buying a ski home/vacation home with the hope that it will be a longterm investment where you'll end up in the black when you sell at some point is going to be a pipedream. Taxes, upkeep, unexpected repairs, etc, etc, etc will more than likely over the course of ones ownership, outpace any appreciation in value and/or rental income (if you decide to go that route). What you can't put a price tag on though is the joy that one can get from being able to "get away from it all" and use their vacation home, family experiences there, etc. And for many vacation home owners, those non-monetary value experiences are far greater than the likely monetary loss that a vacation home owner will see

Exactly.
My wife and I bought a condo at Mount Snow in 2005. It has totally transformed our lives. We used to hate winter or at least we disliked it considerably. I think we both suffered from some type of winter depression due to being cooped up inside all winter. During spring/summer/fall we were always outside biking, hiking etc. Winter came and we were inside except the few weekends when we went skiing or the occasional hike or mountain biking we did in winter. Now we ski every weekend from November through April. We look forward to ALL seasons of the year now.

DrJeff is right about the finances. We could probably do a seasonal rental for less than what it costs us to keep our place but this place is ours, we can decorate it as we want, we can go there whenever we want. We can and do use it year round. It's so relaxing just to go there any time. It's a condo so there's nothing really to fix, no yard work to do. When we go there we are forced to wind down. That feeling alone is priceless and it's why I can't ever see selling it.

 

[deadheadskier]

Any of the 2nd home owners have any issues with burglarly?

It appears most here have condos, which are probably more secure and less of a target.

Our family home in Ludlow was burlarlized 3 times over the 15 years of ownership. The third time when we had a fairly strong alarm system. All of the electronics stolen and booze stolen out of the house each time. Surprisingly, not once was any ski gear stolen.

In the 60s, my grandfather had a vacation home near Ragged Mountain. The house was robbed constantly. Finally my grandfather staked out the house and caught the robber. Robber spent a two years in jail and when he got out, burned my grandfathers cottage down.

 

[drjeff]

Any of the 2nd home owners have any issues with burglarly?

It appears most here have condos, which are probably more secure and less of a target.

Our family home in Ludlow was burlarlized 3 times over the 15 years of ownership. The third time when we had a fairly strong alarm system. All of the electronics stolen and booze stolen out of the house each time. Surprisingly, not once was any ski gear stolen.

In the 60s, my grandfather had a vacation home near Ragged Mountain. The house was robbed constantly. Finally my grandfather staked out the house and caught the robber. Robber spent a two years in jail and when he got out, burned my grandfathers cottage down.

None with my place(yet atleast *fingers crossed* ). Granted I'm in a 240 townhouse development where my place is located roadwise about 85% of the way into the complex so I'm not exactly easy in/easy out from the main road. Plus between the onsite maintenance folks, and the fact that about 5 units down from me I have neighbors for whom their townhouse is their primary residence so they're there all the time, theres almost almost someone passing by multiple times per day

 

[Glenn]

Any of the 2nd home owners have any issues with burglarly?

We've been lucky...fingers crossed. Our neighbors behind us are up and down the road all day...and they're always keeping an eye out since we're not there. There were a rash of break ins last year, but it was a bunch of kids breaking in to steal booze. They were targeting weekender houses.

 

[crank]

We considered buying at Okemo at Solitude when they were first building it. If memory serves they were asking 180k for a 2 bedroom condo and their literature said they pretty much guaranteed enough rental income to cover expenses. I figured we would lose more than we would gain by having the down payment sitting in a condo instead of the stock market. I'm pretty sure I was wrong but at least I'm not stuck having to ski Okemo all the time. (I like Okemo but would get very bored skiing it a lot... It was a great place to take my son when he was learning though.)

Question on property taxes. I was under the impression that the rates are higher in resort towns to help pay for schools in the poorer communities. Is this not so? Does it not apply to non residents? I'm thinking about retiring up there in a few years.

 

[WWF-VT]

Vermont Real Estate Tax info:

http://www.vermontrealestatetoday.com/newsletter/vtrealestatetaxes.html

 

[UVSHTSTRM]

We considered buying at Okemo at Solitude when they were first building it. If memory serves they were asking 180k for a 2 bedroom condo and their literature said they pretty much guaranteed enough rental income to cover expenses. I figured we would lose more than we would gain by having the down payment sitting in a condo instead of the stock market. I'm pretty sure I was wrong but at least I'm not stuck having to ski Okemo all the time. (I like Okemo but would get very bored skiing it a lot... It was a great place to take my son when he was learning though.)

Question on property taxes. I was under the impression that the rates are higher in resort towns to help pay for schools in the poorer communities. Is this not so? Does it not apply to non residents? I'm thinking about retiring up there in a few years.

Don't think resort town matters, you just need to be a flat lander/non resident and have a second home in Vermont and then you will be required to pay the non residential school tax. However I am not sure if there are more taxes for non residents then just that.

 

[bigbob]

We considered buying at Okemo at Solitude when they were first building it. If memory serves they were asking 180k for a 2 bedroom condo and their literature said they pretty much guaranteed enough rental income to cover expenses. I figured we would lose more than we would gain by having the down payment sitting in a condo instead of the stock market. I'm pretty sure I was wrong but at least I'm not stuck having to ski Okemo all the time. (I like Okemo but would get very bored skiing it a lot... It was a great place to take my son when he was learning though.)

Question on property taxes. I was under the impression that the rates are higher in resort towns to help pay for schools in the poorer communities. Is this not so? Does it not apply to non residents? I'm thinking about retiring up there in a few years.

Paging Geoff, he needs your insight to your second favorite subject!

 

[laxski]

we have owned at Mt. Snow for 10 yrs a condo that has a ski-home trail. If you buy make sure you will not be bored with the mountain, i think Okemo is fine. Slope-side is great with kids takes alot of the stress out of skiing. If you have kids age plays a big factor ours were 4 and 7 when we bought so we went up alot 25+ days of skiing a year and it was worth every penny even with 4-5 hour drives each way. Once high school started sports social school work does get in the way. This year as a family we might just make Thankgiving, X-mas, and 4 days Pres.week so no passes this year for the first time in 10 years.So at this point does it make financial sense at this point probably not but I played 2 rounds of golf up there this summer for the first time and discovered another season. We have kept a journal of every trip we have taken in the 10 years and each of us has taken turns writing in it so we have so many great memories. On a side note Dr. Jeff my daughters and I took our 1st lift ride up as property owners on the Nitro Express in 2001 you were telling us you had just gotten back from Utah

 

[Vince]

Hi Ray

I own at Jackson Gore but before buying there I often rented in some of the complexes you mentioned. Once you accept the idea that this is not a money makeing venture your ready......Regardless your gonna have to go up there and check unit by unit. Slopeside can mean click and ski or it can mean a long walk over a few snow banks. Proximity to pools same thing. Snowmakeing guns blasting all night long etc.... Have not stayed at Kettlebrook and not sure which complex Slopeside refers to. But Winterplace(top of the beginer chairs) and Solitude are both good locations. Each complex has its own swimming pools. Solitude is heated outdoors, Kettlebrook is indoors you might have access to the Spring House at Jackson Gore also. Solitude has better views if your up the hill. Always been impressed by the snow plowing, shoveling, staff and effort to get the condo connector trails open......My number one tip is to make sure you get a place where you can ski to a chair that is NOT at the base lodge. You want to avoid the mob scene at the base area and the extra lift ride out of the base. Even weekdays this a hassle. You will be much less aggrevated when your kids say they are cold after 2 runs.....Your best bet is to go up there in the off season when its dead and have a real estate person show you around...... Price it out vs renting. I think you can rent a 2br/2 bth at Kettlebrook for about 25k a season.......If you were to rent night by night probably slightly less than 1k a night........Im glad i did it. Would do it again

 

[skizoo]

We own a 2 BR at Kettlebrook. We rented seasonally for a few years before buying. As others have said, do not look at this as an investment or a money making opportunity, it's not going to happen, it is a lifestyle choice.

Regarding ski in ski out, you have to be careful, the actual number of units on the entire mountain that are true ski in ski out is far less than advertised. Slopeside does not equal ski in ski out. You need to ask specifically of even better just go look around.

Kettle Brook has 10 buildings only 3 of which are ski in ski out, and really 2 of those you couldn't ski to your door, fortunately ours is true ski in ski out. We can ski right out the door or right back to the door as we are on the Kettle Brook trail. But not all buildings on that trail are ski in ski out.

Winterplace has by far the most units and many of them can be had for a lot less than listed price as they are oversaturated with listings, but there are only a few there that are close to being ski in ski out.

Okemo is a great location as it is so close to so many other areas. I'm 23 mins, door to K skyeship and not much longer to Pico, Magic about 25-30 mins, Bromley, the same, Stratton maybe 35-40 mins.. it's a good region with a lot of options.. but I can still go out my back door and click em on and go..

As another reply stated, you have to be careful of location as a lot of the ski in ski out locations are going to have a lot of snow gun noise.. Our location is quiet and private..

All the things others have said about costs and taxes are largely accurate, taxes are high, HOA fees are high, but there are bargains available right now, we use our place and only rent a few weeks per year during the big holidays.

We know we made the right choice for us, sure it costs us money, but we like it a lot better than renting. We can do what we want with the place, it's our furniture, our bedding, our TV's, to us it's a second home..

Here's a link to the condo maps for Okemo, to give you an idea of where buildings are located in relation to the trails.

http://www.okemorealestate.com/article/archive/1994/