Avalanche on Mount Washington

[riverc0il]

I don't think it is "Monday morning quarterbacking" to point out when there are dangers that were significant and easily recognizable and those dangers went largely ignored and led to the end result.

I'm not sure you understood the context of my reference on the MMQB comment. It is definitely NOT MMQB'ing to point out the risk factors and try to learn from them. It IS MMQB'ing to say those guys shouldn't have been up there because if there hadn't been an incident, no one would be taking issue with it. There are many folks on T4T that hike and ski in moderate and even "upper moderate" warning levels. I am only suggesting we should look at the facts for a lesson and not say they are idiots for going up there.

The interesting comment I saw on T4T was Lftgly commenting on their climbing habits and that they didn't make good decisions in that sense and I find that commentary far more appropriate than saying they had no business climbing at all because it was upper moderate... which folks often go up there in and don't face consequences.

I'm just making the argument that people do dangerous things themselves but then call out other people for doing the same sort of dangerous things and the only difference is one person paid the price and the other didn't. I don't think it is appropriate to judge other people's risk tolerance, that argument is very difficult to make because you are making an absolute argument about a topic that is a sliding scale on a personal level.

 

[David Metsky]

And most importantly: be ready to say no when the signs are telling you no.

Like continuing up to halfway point on North Tripyramid in prime avy conditions with no gear and no avy assessment?

 

[abc]

5. And most importantly: be ready to say no when the signs are telling you no.

not exactly a strong point for the goal oriented individuals who tend to take up extreme situations or have had experiences that continue to support their decision processes.

Sadly, the more "extreme situation" which many experienced folks found themselves in carries more consequences. So ironically, these people also need to be able to say no and turn back just as much as anyone else!

Maybe in the end we all end up ignoring the signs at one point or another and jump all over incidents like this to say: "Hey I never would have done that!" to make ourselves feel safer.

Not just FEEL SAFER. But BE SAFER by learning from the mistake of other! (and yes, wishing we would NEVER have done that if we were put in the same situation)

 

[riverc0il]

I'm reading up on the new details being discussed today on T4T. Seems like the group made a lot of bad decisions and went in with the wrong mind set. I'm still not going to question the groups "go" decision but based on the information being reported by local experts, it does seem like the group could have been better prepared and were too focused on their goal rather than staying safe. Definitely some big eye openers in that T4T thread. But I'll again fall back on the issue of judgment as we've all done something really stupid in the BC. Hopefully education can come of this without attacking the individuals.

 

[noreasterbackcountry]

Like continuing up to halfway point on North Tripyramid in prime avy conditions with no gear and no avy assessment?

<== Still working on number 5.

 

[kingdom-tele]

Sadly, the more "extreme situation" which many experienced folks found themselves in carries more consequences. So ironically, these people also need to be able to say no and turn back just as much as anyone else!


Not just FEEL SAFER. But BE SAFER by learning from the mistake of other! (and yes, wishing we would NEVER have done that if we were put in the same situation)

useless in this context IMO.

placing the microscope over this event and coming up with a list of details that would have led to your more perfect outcome does very little to clarify our own individual weaknesses. It is comical though, how much better people that have yet to experience a humbling moment are at finding the err in others.

stay out there long enough. its coming.

what are people saying if this group makes it, videos the ascent, represents the spirit and determination they are proud to support, inspires god who knows, and comes away confirming their risk assessment skills and talent. kind of sounds like something that could make money, someone should get on that.

 

[abc]

what are people saying if this group makes it, videos the ascent, represents the spirit and determination they are proud to support, inspires god who knows, and comes away confirming their risk assessment skills and talent. kind of sounds like something that could make money, someone should get on that.

Very little chance of that.

According to the time line in the report and the other group's observation, they were moving slowly and so far behind schedule they were not very likely to have gotten to the top in daylight.

[edit]I didn't realize their plan includes climbing in the dark to ths summit and overnighting in the observatory...

 

[deadheadskier]

any photos of the slide?

 

[kingdom-tele]

Very little chance of that.

According to the time line in the report and the other group's observation, they were moving slowly and so far behind schedule they were not very likely to have gotten to the top in daylight.

[edit]I didn't realize their plan includes climbing in the dark to ths summit and overnighting in the observatory...

imagine all the other minutiae people don't know that led to their choices.

eyeballing a complex process and focusing on all the things that we already know we wouldn't do doesn't, in itself make us safer. we are notoriously bad with perception and collecting information from the environment. seeking details that are blatantly obvious, while great for ego, is lazy, worse, it isn't to far from its cousin complacency.

I always thought it would be interesting to hear, read, etc expert perspectives on successful endeavors, where they felt anxious in their decision making, how they would make adjustments, etc. Ed Viesturs tells a story about climbing K2, they made it, but it was hairy, instead of focusing on the accomplishment of an amazing climb he walks away shattered because of the choices that were made. To me that is an expert and demonstrates the skill people should focus on. I would assume, like most complex things, it isn't the obvious dangers that will get us, so why spend so much time on it. just my opinion. to each their own.

be safe everyone.

 

[SIKSKIER]

There are two threads on T4T about the avy:
Avy incidents and rescues are pretty common discussion points on T4T.

My bad David.I've been looking in the recent trail report forum and not general discussion.

 

[Gnarcissaro]

The USFS Snow Rangers have come out with their analysis.

http://www.mountwashingtonavalanchecenter.org/01-17-2013-avalanche-accident-in-central-gully/

 

[abc]

Interesting read, the Snow Rangers analysis.

On a one-way trip, deciding to turn around and descend is a very difficult decision to make.

I found this statement strike a particular chord. Not so much for the climbing party but form us skiers. Many of bc ski trips are loop trips where the uphill climbing path is different from the downhill ski path. So it's much harder to define a 'turn around' point.

 

[Abubob]

My own take on this is that these folks, while taking safety seriously, were not afraid of an extremely challenging situation. Here you have an expedition that includes a former Marine with half a leg removed, not afraid of any sort of challenge at all and willing to take risks - all the while fully trained and experienced. From my perspective these folks knew what they were getting into and took every precaution - short of calling it off. Seems a lot of Alpinists are like that. To them bad weather and dicey - heck - dangerous conditions are part of the experience. People think I'm crazy for hiking in winter up the Tucks trail or up Cardigan. While these folks seem, to many of us, to be taking undue risks its all part of the game plan. More power to them.

 

[Smellytele]

My own take on this is that these folks, while taking safety seriously, were not afraid of an extremely challenging situation. Here you have an expedition that includes a former Marine with half a leg removed, not afraid of any sort of challenge at all and willing to take risks - all the while fully trained and experienced. From my perspective these folks knew what they were getting into and took every precaution - short of calling it off. Seems a lot of Alpinists are like that. To them bad weather and dicey - heck - dangerous conditions are part of the experience. People think I'm crazy for hiking in winter up the Tucks trail or up Cardigan. While these folks seem, to many of us, to be taking undue risks its all part of the game plan. More power to them.

I do not agree - they did somethings that trained people would not and should not do. 3 people roped together in an avy area without placing protection. Not saying I am an expert but I have done many climbs in Huntington and other mountains around New England and the US. I have made mistakes yes and have been lucky on more than one occasion. They may have been unlucky but we can still learn from them and them from themselves. I have back off climbs when I have had people above me climbing in unsafe manners. You can only protect yourself so much when others are climbing near you. These people did not protect themselves at all except for the false sense of security of roping up to each other without placing protection. I could go in but all has been said within The USFS Snow Rangers analysis

 

[AdironRider]

What exactly are you referencing in placing protection?

I have been in several situations where Ive roped up to my ski partners but nothing like being on belay or what have you. Its pretty common IME.

 

[polski]

My own take on this is that these folks, while taking safety seriously, were not afraid of an extremely challenging situation. Here you have an expedition that includes a former Marine with half a leg removed, not afraid of any sort of challenge at all and willing to take risks

Too much so, indisputably in this case, given the outcome.

- all the while fully trained and experienced.

I have read elsewhere that the group leader with extensive mountaineering experience including seven Everest expeditions had no experience whatsover on MTW; in fact the day before the avy the group disregarded directions they got on mountain and got lost heading to Harvard Cabin, finally admitting their mistake only when they arrived at Hermit Lake.

From my perspective these folks knew what they were getting into

If you mean getting into an avalanche that could well have killed a whole bunch of them, then I'd agree.

and took every precaution

They didn't even carry shovels/beacons/probes! Now the USFS report acknowledges that avy accidents in Huntington often do not involve burials, but still. And among other things, allowing the lead climber to climb through a knee- to thigh-deep soft slab on a steep slope was the opposite of "taking every precaution."

- short of calling it off. Seems a lot of Alpinists are like that. To them bad weather and dicey - heck - dangerous conditions are part of the experience.

That part is all well and good.

People think I'm crazy for hiking in winter up the Tucks trail or up Cardigan. While these folks seem, to many of us, to be taking undue risks its all part of the game plan. More power to them.

I could not disagree more strongly with this. There's a difference between managing risk and taking undue risk (i.e. NOT managing risk). I'd say "more power to them" only if they had summited safely; otherwise you're encouraging bad behavior, with potentially very serious consequences for others. By their actions they posed grave risk to themselves and also put rescuers into a risky situation.

 

[AdironRider]

Too much so, indisputably in this case, given the outcome.


I have read elsewhere that the group leader with extensive mountaineering experience including seven Everest expeditions had no experience whatsover on MTW; in fact the day before the avy the group disregarded directions they got on mountain and got lost heading to Harvard Cabin, finally admitting their mistake only when they arrived at Hermit Lake.



If you mean getting into an avalanche that could well have killed a whole bunch of them, then I'd agree.



They didn't even carry shovels/beacons/probes! Now the USFS report acknowledges that avy accidents in Huntington often do not involve burials, but still. And among other things, allowing the lead climber to climb through a knee- to thigh-deep soft slab on a steep slope was the opposite of "taking every precaution."



That part is all well and good.



I could not disagree more strongly with this. There's a difference between managing risk and taking undue risk (i.e. NOT managing risk). I'd say "more power to them" only if they had summited safely; otherwise you're encouraging bad behavior, with potentially very serious consequences for others. By their actions they posed grave risk to themselves and also put rescuers into a risky situation.

Have you taken an avi class?

 

[Abubob]

I do not agree - they did somethings that trained people would not and should not do. 3 people roped together in an avy area without placing protection. Not saying I am an expert but I have done many climbs in Huntington and other mountains around New England and the US. I have made mistakes yes and have been lucky on more than one occasion. They may have been unlucky but we can still learn from them and them from themselves. I have back off climbs when I have had people above me climbing in unsafe manners. You can only protect yourself so much when others are climbing near you. These people did not protect themselves at all except for the false sense of security of roping up to each other without placing protection. I could go in but all has been said within The USFS Snow Rangers analysis

I disagree too. These quotes from the Avi Center report tell me these guys know what they were about.

They had been training for the climb in the days preceding the event, which included ice climbing in Crawford Notch. The group was organized with a variety of experience and skills, from novice to experienced mountaineers.

Before departing, a USFS Snow Ranger arrived and talked with the group about weather and avalanche conditions. Despite this discussion and warnings about increasing avalanche danger through the day and that Moderate avalanche danger means that “human triggered avalanches are possible,” the group decided to stick with their plan.

After the accident happened, the three teams remaining on the route took a quick inventory of who was present. It quickly became apparent that one rope team, including the lead guide, had been swept down off the route below all the others. At this time, the remaining members of the group reorganized and began to descend on rappel. At all times, all members of the descending party were either clipped into a rock or ice anchor or were actively on rappel.

I note here that they had the ability and skill to clip in on descent so if not clipped in on ascent they did so purposely. While it does say "at all times" I'm not sure it means on ascent or not.

This group was heavily invested in success in many ways. They were organized as a charity for a very worthwhile cause. The team members had all donated significant amounts of time. The climb was being filmed by a professional filmmaker for a documentary. There was a strong media campaign to draw attention to the climb…these all increase the level of commitment beyond what might be normal for a purely recreational climb.

This last quote here says it all for me. This was all highly organized but ultimately a FAIL. Can't wait to see the vid!

 

[Smellytele]

What exactly are you referencing in placing protection?

I have been in several situations where Ive roped up to my ski partners but nothing like being on belay or what have you. Its pretty common IME.

You do not need to belay but place pieces of pro between the lead climb and the last climber. When The middle climber gets to the pro he then clips around the pro and proceeds. The third removes the pro after the lead climber has placed another piece of pro. It is called simuclimb. without pro climbing roped in avy conditions is not wise especially with others climbing below you.

 

[AdironRider]

You do not need to belay but place pieces of pro between the lead climb and the last climber. When The middle climber gets to the pro he then clips around the pro and proceeds. The third removes the pro after the lead climber has placed another piece of pro. It is called simuclimb. without pro climbing roped in avy conditions is not wise especially with others climbing below you.

Gotcha, know what you mean.

I thought about it some more and the times Ive been roped up like I described were in pretty different situations than these guys.

Catching up on the T4T thread, opening my eyes a little bit. I still dont think they made the wrong call on an attempt that day in moderate to increasing danger, I do that myself pretty regularly, but I think these guys had a bit of summit fever as well that could have affected their decision making.