Cost of $eason Pa$$

[Geoff]

Re: Pass Prices.

So let me get this straight because you can only ski weekends you think I should be screwed out of a good season pass deal. Heck I don't really care about blackout days or even week-ends. I like to leave the weekends to you working stiffs. I have paid very high prices all my life for holidays, weekends, and even mid-week skiing. Now that there is finally a decent deal floating around you complain because of crowding! I am retired, I don't crowd up your weekend slopes, drive up the price of your lodging, nor create traffic that keeps you from getting there faster (I even have a very economical car so I don't suck up tons of fuel like so many gas guzzling SUV drivers) , and I definitely don't compete with you for bar stool space. BTW, nobody helped me pay for my three kids lift tickets, and years ago there were not even "youth" prices between kids and adults. So, stop whining, work out some time off and/or winter vacation, and hang in there. Don't advocate ruining my deal because you are unhappy.

I'd have no issue with ASC selling a discounted pass that worked at Killington only midweek. Until this insanity started last year, ASC always had a value-priced ASC-East midweek pass.

I doubt Killington will be part of ASC much longer.

In case you guys aren't up on what's happened at Killington, ASC defaulted on a bunch of loans and Oak Hill, who essentially controls ASC, was able to suck all the developable land at Killington away from ASC in exchange for forgiveness of one of the loans. Part of the deal is that Killington Ltd gets 25% of the "profit" from the development though the bean counters will likely make sure that Killington Ltd doesn't ever see much cash. When this was announced 15 months ago, they were saying Killington is a "partner". It took a while for it to come out how little interest Killington and ASC actually have in the project. Oak Hill has since sold off those development rights to Centex Destination Properties, a giant developer.

The number of acres is huge.
* The whole Snowshed parking lot.
* Skier's right of the lower 2/3's of the Snowshed quad.
* A triangle starting at the base of the Superstar quad that goes down the Access Road and over to where the compressor pads are halfway up Snowshed.
* All the land that wraps around the downhill side of the Rams Head parking lot starting at the magic carpet.
* The land uphill from the Vale parking lot between Snowdon and Rams Head.
* A huge parcel below Sunrise at Bear Mountain.

To sell million dollar condos and 2 million dollar trophy homes to rich people, Centex is going to want to take Killington upscale. $349 season passes and overcrowded facilities just won't align with needing to present a premium product. It's like building trophy homes on a crowded public golf course that has brown fairways and crappy greens. The developer will cut back on the traffic on the course so they can sell their trophy homes. In this case, there's so much money at stake that I think Centex will just end up buying Killington from ASC the next time ASC needs to raise cash to pay off defaulted loans.

 

[thetrailboss]

Re: Pass Prices.

To sell million dollar condos and 2 million dollar trophy homes to rich people, Centex is going to want to take Killington upscale. $349 season passes and overcrowded facilities just won't align with needing to present a premium product. It's like building trophy homes on a crowded public golf course that has brown fairways and crappy greens. The developer will cut back on the traffic on the course so they can sell their trophy homes.

Though I agree with the logic, I disagree with the projected outcome. :-? That would be like saying we're going to convert Chicago-LaGuardia from one of the world's largest and busiest airports to private corporate jets or Cessna's only. The scales of economy just don't match and you'd be left with a lot of empty/wasted facilities. :roll:

And do you realize the political, economic, and social impacts of such a move? Theoretically, your idea could happen but not in reality. The fact is that Killington leases a lot of state land and there probably is a clause in that lease stating that the land must be accessible to the public. Making a 'private ski club' kills that :evil:. Furthermore, we're talking about thousands and thousands of jobs directly and indirectly linked to that mountain that would be gone. Lift Ops, Snowmakers, Groomers, hotels, motels, restaurants, shops, etc., etc. would be gone. You'd kill the area economy.

If that were to happen, the state WOULD intervene in some way to prevent the closure (probably much to the chagrin of the Killington 'locals'...now there is an oxymoron). This would be the equivalent, if not more, of the failure of the Rutland Railroad in the 1960's when the state saw an imminent economic impact and acted by buying the railroad entirely and leasing it to a private company. The same would probably happen in this case...and probably Triple Peaks would step up :wink:

Besides that, K-mart makes a profit from what I've heard and I don't think ASC would kill their fattest goose.

 

[riverc0il]

i see potential in geoff's thoughts. if ASC can not over come it's debt and needs to sell off another resort, selling off kmart could be a strong option. it obviously can not go private if it is on public land; however, the place could become stratton like. also, i doubt ASC considers the impact on the local economy with any of their moves. a corporation only cares about the local ecomony in so much as it effects the corporation's profit, image, and share holder value. a closure would never be an issue, there would also be a waiting buyer for kmart. wheather or not kmart makes a profit or not, it's likely the highest priced real estate in ASC's portfolio and if the financial situation is as bas as geoff details, clearly it is one of the worst setups for ASC as well. i figure it would be a last resort so i doubt it would happen unless they had not other alternative, but it would be interesting to see.

 

[awf170]

Re: Pass Prices.

Though I agree with the logic, I disagree with the projected outcome. :-? That would be like saying we're going to convert Chicago-LaGuardia from one of the world's largest and busiest airports to private corporate jets or Cessna's only. The scales of economy just don't match and you'd be left with a lot of empty/wasted facilities. :roll:

And do you realize the political, economic, and social impacts of such a move? Theoretically, your idea could happen but not in reality. The fact is that Killington leases a lot of state land and there probably is a clause in that lease stating that the land must be accessible to the public. Making a 'private ski club' kills that :evil:. Furthermore, we're talking about thousands and thousands of jobs directly and indirectly linked to that mountain that would be gone. Lift Ops, Snowmakers, Groomers, hotels, motels, restaurants, shops, etc., etc. would be gone. You'd kill the area economy.

If that were to happen, the state WOULD intervene in some way to prevent the closure (probably much to the chagrin of the Killington 'locals'...now there is an oxymoron). This would be the equivalent, if not more, of the failure of the Rutland Railroad in the 1960's when the state saw an imminent economic impact and acted by buying the railroad entirely and leasing it to a private company. The same would probably happen in this case...and probably Triple Peaks would step up :wink:

Trailboss I dont think geoff is talking about it being a privite club. It would just be a place like stowe or stratton with over $1,000 season passes to keep poorer(is that word?:dunce half of the k-mart crowd out

 

[Geoff]

Re: Pass Prices.

Trailboss I dont think geoff is talking about it being a privite club. It would just be a place like stowe or stratton with over $1,000 season passes to keep poorer(is that word?:dunce half of the k-mart crowd out

Right. I'm just suggesting that ASC is gonna need to sell another ski area soon. None of them have much real estate development up-side unless you sell Killington to Centex.

If Centex owned Killington, they'd likely revert to pre-ASC season pass pricing to cut back on skier visits while keeping essentially the same revenue stream. In the Preston Smith years, a season pass bought before Columbus Day cost 21 to 22 weekend/holiday day tickets. A midweek pass was 1/3 of the 7-day pass. There were no discount day ticket deals at all unless you were booking lodging through the Killington 800 number. ASC dumps cheap season passes in the summer because they have no cash flow for 6 months and they can't get further lines of credit to run the company during the slow 6 months. A financially stable parent company wouldn't need to do that.

Personally, I think another couple of years of ASC discount pricing would put quite a few of the fringe ski resorts out of business. That's not good for any of us.

 

[ctenidae]

ASC defaluted on its loans with Textron (rather, Grand Summit Resort Properties did, and GSRP is the biggest debtor in the AsC world), but got a waiver for it. This is a pretty good sign that ASC is on good terms with its creditors, and isn't in any major danger at the moment. While they may (and probably will) sell off some resorts, I doubt they'll sell Killington.

On the Centex development, Killington sold that land to SP Land in Dallas in 2004. It was suposed ot be Killington Village II, but Centex is looking to develop it as condos and single-families, instead. Centex has nothing to do with Killington's operations, and is only working with Killington to access the plans and work Killington did on the development originally, rather than re-invent the wheel. Seems to me the biggest holdup Centex has going right now is getting the town to approve 12-14% road grades, verus the 8-10% allowed for private roads.

Centex has no desire to buy Killington, adn doesn't own any of it now. Instead, the 469 acres that Killington was going to develop was sold.

 

[Vortex]

bump
deadlines approaching. here is a nice linc to some nh deals. www.skinh.com/seasonpasses.cfm

 

[Vortex]

Bump. threedom goes up at end of Nov. www.threedompass.com

 

[woodi7259]

Just noticed this thread and realize it's old but couldn't help but add...That the most the resorts really give students a deal. I payed $260 for a full whiteface gore pass last season. This season were getting a Jay pass for $100 if we go on a $60 trip later in the semester so $160 total with a weekend of slopeside lodging and skiing. It's gonna suck when i graduate in a couple of years.

 

[Vortex]

Enjoy what you have. Woodi7259

 

[Bosefius]

I ski mainly on Friday's and Saturday's (my weekend). Friday's aren't bad for K mart. Saturday's I'll hit Pico. Can't really go wrong for the $349. And yes, due to my savings, I have spent more money on food in the lodge.

If I get bored with K or Pico, I have Mt. Snow which I have not noticed the same increase in skier traffic.

Then I still have Sunday River, Attitash or the Loaf to hit. All this for $349...are you kidding me? I still had money left over to buy my Copper season pass for $289, and I missed the first cut off which would have put it at $250!

So I'm up to $638, then you add the $30 for opening day at Wildcat and it's a grand total of $668.

So it breaks down like this Killington, Pico, Mt. Snow, Sunday River, Sugarloaf, Attitash, Copper, opening day at Wildcat, and $607 left in my pocket for random day tickets OR a pass at Stowe?

 

[Vortex]

I ski mainly on Friday's and Saturday's (my weekend). Friday's aren't bad for K mart. Saturday's I'll hit Pico. Can't really go wrong for the $349. And yes, due to my savings, I have spent more money on food in the lodge.

If I get bored with K or Pico, I have Mt. Snow which I have not noticed the same increase in skier traffic.

Then I still have Sunday River, Attitash or the Loaf to hit. All this for $349...are you kidding me? I still had money left over to buy my Copper season pass for $289, and I missed the first cut off which would have put it at $250!

So I'm up to $638, then you add the $30 for opening day at Wildcat and it's a grand total of $668.

So it breaks down like this Killington, Pico, Mt. Snow, Sunday River, Sugarloaf, Attitash, Copper, opening day at Wildcat, and $607 left in my pocket for random day tickets OR a pass at Stowe?

I love your math, kind of like how I told my wife I was saving money buying the threedom anytime the Asc bronze and the AZ race team at Pats :wink:

 

[Skier71787]

I couldn't help but get both the threedom and the All east...haha. There is a group of kids at UNH i go with to the all east mountains during school, and during winter break i will be going to the threedom mountains, which are closer to where i live. All in all, i plan on skiing a good 40 days this winter...Unfortunatly I'm afraid i won't reach what i got last year...60.