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Is President George W Bush Better than FDR

Stephen

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Charlie Schuessler said:
For a bunch of hikers, skiers & outdoor enthusiasts... this is an interesting dialogue...when can we expect Stephan to… :wink:

With a light-hearted invitation like that, how can I resist?

Chilemass PM'd me asking for my input. I responded that I may or may not, but at this point, I felt that we could save a lot of time and trouble if we each just posted and responded with either "liberal" or "conservative" and we'd all know what each other would say without having to type it. However, pedxing's post led me to reconsider the fact that we're not ALL black or white here.

There's no doubt in my mind that what we have now is better than the alternatives in both elections. However, one can never judge the legacy of a presidency while it is occurring. Basic calculus will show that any curve can look straight if examined to the smallest points.


There are things that I think Bush has been brilliant on, but there are other things that this nation will need to recover from for years to come. Personally, I am stunned that we are going through yet another administration that refuses to legitimately address the borders issue.


So, IMHO, it's way too early to judge legacy based on current events. George H.W. Bush had some of the highest ratings ever at the start of the gulf war. He ended with a whimper. Clinton had the highest poll ratings since people were first asked of their opinion of the President's job performance. But I don't see him as obtaining the greatness of other Presidents. Regan was seen as foolish when he fired the air traffic controllers, and everyone assumed he was done after that. Yet, his legacy was much stronger than that, as evidenced at his funeral.


In the musical 1776, which takes place in Philadelphia when the Declaration of Independence is being voted on, the whole balance came to the question of slavery. John Adams insisted that it had to be aboloished, southern representatives wanted it to remain. The vote had to be unanimous. The founding fathers accepted what evils they had to take in order to achieve the higher goals. There is no perfect solution. It's very easy to bemoan the fact that our founding fathers failed in providing for equal rights. However, that was not their battle; if it were, they would have lost. Thier battle was independence and from that, equal rights would one day come.

There is no changing the world overnight. Change is a war won battle by battle. You pick the fights you can win, and hope and pray that the coming generations both forgive you for not winning all the battles, while at the same time picking up the banner and continuing the fight.


Our movements today to secure democracy in other areas of the world are a step in that direction. In contrast to other forms of government, democracy works every time it's tried. There is no other form of government that leads to the people achieving life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness to a fuller level. We thrive thanks to democracy. As does, France, Germany, UK, Poland, Ukraine, and now even Afghanistan. All of these countries were oppressed under various regimes and monarchies. And now they all have a place on the world stage.

We as a people have a right to speak against our government, the very sign that the balance remains in order. This, to me, is the litmus test of a free society.

So there it is, my thoughts on the legacy concept. Ask me again in about 10 years or so, and I'll let you know where things stand then.

-Stephen
 

dmc

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riverc0il said:
dmc, not sure how dropping a nuke to kill bin laden would have been a good thing. the idea of dropping nukes any where in the world is a horrible idea. last thing we need is to provide further justification to the world that nukes should ever be deployed. the environmental damage and damage to innocent people, plants, and animals is beyond measure. lets go after those responsible for 9/11, but do so reasonably and with as best pin point accuracy as possible. whats the saying? close only counts in horse shoes and hand gernades and h-bombs? :|

After 911 I was pretty mad.. And wanted revenge..
It was a fleeting feeling... I lost a few friends that day... :( Our town in NJ overlooked Manhattan..
I wanted revenge...

My life(like many others) got turned upside down.. I realize the damage caused by nukes.. But I wanted all those guys dead...

But like the Klingons say - "Revenge is a dish best served cold"...


PS - We still havent gotten them... and it pisses me off that we wasted so much time in Iraq... Taking our was on terrorism to another place... At the expense of the people that live their...
No wonder they hate us...
 

dmc

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Stephen said:
So, IMHO, it's way too early to judge legacy based on current events.

Here's the legacy...

1600 Americans dead...
Uncounted Iraqi civilians dead...
Took us to war with bad information from bad sources..

Like a lot of presidents - he's using his last 4 years as legacy building...
He doesnt want to be known for the Iraq war... He wants to nail some domestic thing - Like Social Security...

dude needs to go...
 

loafer89

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CheckpointCharlie.jpg



Just for interest I have posted a picture of me returning across Checkpoint Charlie from my trip to East Berlin on July 3rd, 1989. Even though the wall fell 4 months later, crossing the border was still a serious affair that took over 1/2 hour.

I had to cross the border alone, as my uncle was German and not permitted to cross at Checkpoint Charlie which was only available to the 4 victorious allies of WWII.
 

SilentCal

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I wonder how much Bush's legacy would change if Bin Laden were captured. FDR went to war for his generations 9/11, Pearl Harbor. He died before Japan surrendered but Truman got the credit for the "revenge" with the bomb.
If Bin Laden were captured tomorrow, would the war on terror be vindicated and would we still be in Iraq one year after his capture. Tough questions to think about.

I also think that with the weak presidents that we've had in the last 15 years, Congress is tipping the scales of power back their way. Just my opinion.
 

dmc

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SilentCal said:
If Bin Laden were captured tomorrow, would the war on terror be vindicated and would we still be in Iraq one year after his capture. Tough questions to think about.

If Osama Bin Laden was captured in one of Sadams palaces... Eating a hot meal off a nuke.. sitting on a tank of somekind of bio-weapon... Playing cards with Sadam himself..

Maybe...

But it's too late for that... His leggacy is F'd... And he can't even build on it after he leaves.. Like Carter or Clinton cause everyone hates him... He talks about political capital..

HE's blown every penny... He also lost ALL the feeling of unity after 911... Hell - even I wanted to nuke Tora Bora and the most liberal person I know.. :)
 

blacknblue

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dmc said:
SilentCal said:
If Bin Laden were captured tomorrow, would the war on terror be vindicated and would we still be in Iraq one year after his capture. Tough questions to think about.
But it's too late for that... His leggacy is F'd... And he can't even build on it after he leaves.. Like Carter or Clinton cause everyone hates him...
It's far too early to assume how the history books will judge any contemporary figure. Especially with presidents, we only see the outcome of their decisions years, even decades, later. E.G. If the next 20 years sees democracy spread throughout the Arab world, much of the credit will probably stem to Bush. Who knows? It's way too early to write legacies for Bush, Blair, or even Clinton.
And it seems a bit presumptuous to say that "everybody" hates him when half the country just re-elected him (and he is being celebrated in Tblisi, Georgia, right now). You could assume half the country is a bunch of morons, but it would be more constructive to consider that there might be some valid arguments somewhere in the brains of 150 million Americans.
 

dmc

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blacknblue said:
And it seems a bit presumptuous to say that "everybody" hates him when half the country just re-elected him (and he is being celebrated in Tblisi, Georgia, right now). You could assume half the country is a bunch of morons, but it would be more constructive to consider that there might be some valid arguments somewhere in the brains of 150 million Americans.


Everybody inclues the entire world - I tend to think globally...

He is being celebrated in Georgia while people lob hand gernades at him from the crowd.....

I'm not saying the people that voted for him are morans... You said that...

I do know people that are already disspointed that they cast their votes for W...
 

riverc0il

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And it seems a bit presumptuous to say that "everybody" hates him when half the country just re-elected him
this is 100% untrue. bush received just over half of the electoral votes and popular votes in the election. half the country did not re-elect him because half the country didn't even vote.
 

dmc

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riverc0il said:
And it seems a bit presumptuous to say that "everybody" hates him when half the country just re-elected him
this is 100% untrue. bush received just over half of the electoral votes and popular votes in the election. half the country did not re-elect him because half the country didn't even vote.

And he's lost all the "polical capital" since then..

But still owes the "religious right".. And they will make him pay up...
 

Mike P.

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So, 60 years later he feels he can make a comment about FDR making a mistake allowing a group that was occupying Eastern Germany & would later occupy eastern Europe to do so.

& His comments about a bunch of Europeans who occupied & forced Algonquin, Nipmuck, Crow, Blackfoot, Sioux, Mohegan, etc. nations from their lands would be?????? oops :oops: (this face even looks like Dubya)

Point is you can't compare the world of sixty years ago to now or the threat, we might all be speaking German today without the Soviet Army, Guten tag
 

jjmcgo

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FDR reputation slipping

All the time I was growing up, the government, the schools and the media were under the control of the liberals and FDR was held up as a saint, the man who pulled us through the Depression and led us to victory in war.
But the people who bought into his leadership are dead or dying and another more scholarly look is being taken at his presidency.
I'll leave the war issue for others but it appears his solution to the economic problem at the beginning of his administration is 180 degrees wrong, based on the success of tax-cut policies employed by JFK, Reagan and Bush II to address recessions.
Imagine the hue and cry if the president today rounded up all the men between 18 and 30 and stuck them in the woods building log bridges in swamps instead of leaving them in their communities to work and restart the economy.
FDR's policies contributed to the longest economic downturn in our nation's history.
 

ctenidae

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I'm not real sure where you studied economics, jjmcgo, but it might help to remember that the depression of the 30's was global, and brought about as much by economic turmoil in Europe (ever hear of Germany? Yeah, they didn't fare so well after WWI) as by the excesses of American corporations (Enron/Worldcom/Adelphia, only 70 years ago). FDR's cure worked because he created jobs to replace the ones that didn't exist in this country. The WPA and CCC provided a whole bunch of people with jobs, paychecks, food, clothing, and shelter, and managed to get a whole lot of infrastructure built- much of which is still being used, and couldn't be afforded today. Ramping up production to face WWII would have been a whole lot tougher without the roads and bridges to transport materials.

Don't make me laugh about JFK/Reagan/Bush II's successes with tax cuts. JFK didn't have a serious downturn to deal with, Reagan's didn't start until after he was elected, and didn't end until after Clinton, and Bush II's haven't done a single thing to help the economy. Consumer demand has been at pretty much the same levels for about 5 years, financed not by Bush's tax cuts, but by Greenspan's work with interest rates. People finance living these days through their homes. Corporations got the biggest chunk of tax cuts inan effort to spur capital expansion, which it did not do- Reagan's trickle-down economics, not working. Again.
 

loafer89

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As a skier, I can appreciate the work done by the men and women of the WPA to promote skiing by building infrastructure at such areas as:

Timberline Lodge
Monarch Ski Area
Gunstock Ski Area
Alta Ski Area
Gore
Badger Pass Ski Area
Stowe Ski Area

To name a few......
 

dmc

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loafer89 said:
As a skier, I can appreciate the work done by the men and women of the WPA to promote skiing by building infrastructure at such areas as:

Timberline Lodge
Monarch Ski Area
Gunstock Ski Area
Alta Ski Area
Gore
Badger Pass Ski Area
Stowe Ski Area

To name a few......

I think the Sherburne Trail was cut by the WPA too...
 

noreaster

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Re: FDR reputation slipping

jjmcgo said:
All the time I was growing up, the government, the schools and the media were under the control of the liberals and FDR was held up as a saint, the man who pulled us through the Depression and led us to victory in war.
But the people who bought into his leadership are dead or dying and another more scholarly look is being taken at his presidency.
I'll leave the war issue for others but it appears his solution to the economic problem at the beginning of his administration is 180 degrees wrong, based on the success of tax-cut policies employed by JFK, Reagan and Bush II to address recessions.
Imagine the hue and cry if the president today rounded up all the men between 18 and 30 and stuck them in the woods building log bridges in swamps instead of leaving them in their communities to work and restart the economy.
FDR's policies contributed to the longest economic downturn in our nation's history.
jjmcgo, I think you been listening to too much conservative propaganda on AM talk radio. To start, I would suggest you go to Washington DC and see the FDR monument. When FDR took office people did not have enough food to EAT. Think about that for a minute. FOOD you know the stuff you put in your mouth to survive. Parents could not feed themselves or there children. It was a different time that most young people today can not even come close to imagine what it was like to live in 1930s. Try not eating for a few days. When the real HUNGER pains set in, now visualize there is nothing you can do to make the HUNGER pains go away. Oh yeah here is the best part. While you got this HUNGER knot in your gut, there is no TV, radio, iPods, or computer video games to take your mind off the bad situation your in. You just got to hang out with absolutly nothing to do.

I believe the taxes now are the highest they have ever been. In the 1970s minimum wage was $2.50/hour. Obviously minimum wage has not kept up with inflation. Most state have a sales tax on bottled water. Imagine that. Taxing clean water that can be used in infant baby bottles. :roll:

I think this says it all about Republican politics.

The Road to Riches Is Called K Street
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/21/AR2005062101632.html

The Republicans in charge aren't just pro-business, they are also pro-government. Federal outlays increased nearly 30 percent from 2000 to 2004, to $2.29 trillion. And despite the budget deficit, federal spending is set to increase again this year, especially in programs that are prime lobbying targets such as defense, homeland security and medical coverage.
 

loafer89

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To make matters worse, the United States, by 1935, was suffering through the worst drought in it's history with 75% of the country affected and 27 states severly impacted. The WPA employed 8.5 million people between 1935 and 1943, and alot of those people were farmers who had nowere else to go.

The WPA was not a free handout, it gave desperate people the chance to work and make money, it gave people back the respect that they deserved.
 

jjmcgo

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My dad was "stationed"

at Chester-Blandford State Forest and built bridges, etc. there. Then, he got drafted.
 
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