Lowering the Drinking Age??

[ctenidae]

21 was an entirely arbitrary age to pick, motivated in no small way, I'm sure, by various conservative and religious groups. It's true that it's not enought o just lower the age. Alcohol also has to be demystified. Europe doesn't have so much of a problem mostly because it's not perceived as a problem. The US really needs to relax a bit, and not keep going back to our Puritanical roots (Remember, America wasn't the Pilgrim's first choice- they got booted out of everywhere else they landed, 9 times, I think. Even The Netherlands kicked them out for being too uptight).
I don't have the stats, but I'd be willing to bet the rates of binge-drinking, abuse, DUI, and whatever else, is about the same for almost any three-year age bracket as it is for 18-21.
Lower the age, and quit making out like having a beer will lead to the total ruination of your life. Besides, just think of the extra tax dollars those extra three years will generate.

 

[HardyMachia]

:angry: That is so dumb! You can get married, but what will you drink as u link arms with yur bride/groom??? Sprite?? oh yeah, i want to remember drinking SPRITE at my wedding, if i get married at 18, 19, or 20! :beer: Cheers baby!

Who said anything about getting bombed at your wedding? Every wedding I've been to there is a toast to the bride and groom.

The point about getting married is that society acknowledges that you have the responsibility to go off buy a house, support your spouse, raise your kids,...

Hardy

 

[HardyMachia]

I don't have the stats, but I'd be willing to bet the rates of binge-drinking, abuse, DUI, and whatever else, is about the same for almost any three-year age bracket as it is for 18-21.

I have looked into the stats, and there is a difference between many age groups. But, if we are going to look at stats to see which group is the most dangerous and pass laws based on the statistics then let's do that instead of picking on teen agers or young adults.

The stats say adult males between the ages of 21 and 35 are the most likely to DUI. If the DUI people are really out to stop DUI then they should pass a law that says males between the ages of 21 and 35 can't drink alcohol or a law that says 21-35-year-old males can't drive. Females are 9 times less likely to DUI a than males in the same age group.

Binge drinking increased among 18-20-year-olds in the mid-80s after they passed the national minimum drinking age blackmail of highway funds law. Binge drinking reduced among 21-year-olds. Why? Because it was now illegal for the 18-20-year-olds so they had to binge before going out or binge so they wouldn't get caught. This is part of the problem with the puritainical Amercian system of alcohol policy. We need to adopt the model used by the rest of the world which doesn't treat alcohol as the devil's brew and treats it with respect and moderation.

Lower the age, and quit making out like having a beer will lead to the total ruination of your life. Besides, just think of the extra tax dollars those extra three years will generate.

I don't think we'd see many extra tax dollars. Teens and young adults from 13-20 are already buying the alcohol or stealing it. I don't see the tax revenue here increasing. They will be a tax savings because the police and court system won't be wasting their time crashing underage gathering.

Hardy Machia
http://vt.youthrights.org/

 

[ctenidae]

Females are 9 times less likely to DUI a than males in the same age group.

That's just because chicks can't hold their liquor, and have to have guys drive them home.
/ducks

You're right, though, HardyMarchia. Interesting observation on the tax dollar savings vs increase.
It boils down to an image thing- if it weren't rebellious to drink underage, then it wouldn't be so "cool". There's also the issue of responsibility, something we don't like to take in this country.

 

[Jaime86]

I am 18 years old and a full-time college student and I am furious with the thought of lowering the legal drinking age. Not only will it bring more drinking period, but more accidents and fatalities. I go to class everyday and there is ATLEAST 2-3 underage students with hangovers from the night before. THIS IS SICKENING AND NEEDS TO STOP! Campus police don't do anything about it so it continues! What is going on with people these days? Where have all our morals gone?

 

[ctenidae]

That's not a question of legality, that's a problem with responsibility. Drink responsibly- it can be done.

 

[dmc]

I am 18 years old and a full-time college student and I am furious with the thought of lowering the legal drinking age. Not only will it bring more drinking period, but more accidents and fatalities. I go to class everyday and there is ATLEAST 2-3 underage students with hangovers from the night before. THIS IS SICKENING AND NEEDS TO STOP! Campus police don't do anything about it so it continues! What is going on with people these days? Where have all our morals gone?

So - want me to pick you up some brews?

WTF?!?!?! You need to get out more kid... Loosen up... Relax - enjoy...
When I went to College a lot more the 2-3 students had hangovers... And they all turned out fine...

 

[Jaytrek57]

I believe God wants the drinking age to be lowered. :wink:

I also believe the drinking age for the Kool-Aid should be thoroughly investigated. :wink: :wink:

don't think we'd see many extra tax dollars. Teens and young adults from 13-20 are already buying the alcohol or stealing it.

Of course there will be extra taxes/revenue generated...and my guess would be a pretty significant one...at least to start.

Millions of 18-21 year olds would have access to bars/clubs and restuarants...which previously, in some cases, could not even let them in the door.

I need a drink. :beer:

 

[Jaime86]

WTF?!?!?! You need to get out more kid... Loosen up... Relax - enjoy...

Loosen up...relax? How is that possible when people all around me are dying from alcohol poisoning and accidents that are alcohol related?

 

[ctenidae]

Thinning the herd, Jaime, to put it bluntly, sarcasticly, and probably offensively. You should pay more attention to your signature line, I think.

/Not flaming you, or trying to stir anything up. Just saying.

 

[thetrailboss]

OK, here is why I'm opposed to this legislation (on the VT level that is):

• 1. Vermont already has dangerous roads and bad weather conditions that make driving hazardous at many different times. It also is a rural state, so driving is a necessity. To put more young, inexperienced, sometimes immature, and impaired drivers on the road is ludicrous.
  
  2. Being a small state, the financial burden is huge. VT would lose $10 million in federal highway funds and auto insurance premiums would sky rocket (as if they needed another reason to increase insurance rates :roll: ). We're talking about more tax burden and increased costs for Vermonters, many of which are already overburdened. :x
  
  3. The influx of out of state minors to drink from MA, NH, NY, and probably even as far away as CT/RI would cause more incidents of impaired driving not just in VT but around New England. This would open up VT establishments to "dram shop" liability issues again pushing up insurance costs...

Underage is already a problem but to simply push the legal age down is not the solution. Already many begin drinking between the ages of 16-18 years of age. If we extrapolate this age difference to what the ages would be if the drinking age was 18, then kids would be starting to drink at the young age of 13. Is this really what we want? :-?

While the opposition states some good philosphical points, I still have to disagree with their assertion that lowering the drinking age is the right thing to do.

 

[Mike P.]

It amazes me the age of people who get caught for DUI, many in their 30's - 50's. Personally besides the responsibility, I don't want the headache having more than a couple of beers gives me, the nights I hae more than a glass or two of wine at a meal out, I'm in a hotel somewhere (or Hiker's Paradise with a few Tuckerman's :beer: )

Boy the drinking & driving my brothers & I did, it's surprising 5 boys made it out of the teens, (heck over all over 35) I'm convinced what goes around comes around so the heavy lecturer at my kids is going to come early & often but with the biggest message of not driving drunk or getting in the car or someone else, no questions asked, call home for a ride or stay put, even if you call for the ride & & say Canwejw ewess druwwve em homeyw daddad? I used their good luck

Personally, drinking was more fun when I was underaged, the thrill of doing something wrong, being a rebel as a 15 year old, seeing the good looking cool girls going to the same woods my friend & I had just come out of, etc...

On another note I recently observed, all the cool kids from High School, do manual labor or at best middle management jobs, the nerds & geeks are running corporate america, political america & earn the most money now, being cool cost $$$$

 

[HardyMachia]

Tax Money
---------

Avoiding the federal extortion of highway funds can be avoided either with the Parental Option or the Lawful Option. http://freevermont.org/issues/TwoOptionsAvoidLossFedFunds.html

Next, compare the United States to Canada or Australia and look at the alcohol related traffic fatality rates. The USA has fatality rates 2-3 times higher than these other car dependent cultures.

Alcohol Related Fatalities per 100,000 population
1.7 Australia
2.7 Canada
6.1 United States

The differences are teens in these cultures are taught responsible alcohol use from a young age, and alcohol isn't held as a forbidden fruit in these other cultures, and being drunk is frowned upon by their societies.

By changing the alcohol culture in the United States we could save 30,000 lives annually. Vermont's often a leader, and if we are concerned about lowering the rates of alcohol traffic fatalities in Vermont and the United States it is time to lower the drinking age to 18 and to allow teens to drink moderate amounts of alcohol when they are out at a restaurant or pub with their parents.

Also, moderate alcohol drinkers are 40% less likely to have heart attacks than alcohol abusers and abstainers. Moderate alcohol consumption is healthy. Again, this is another area where we could save many thousands of lives, but it requires a shift in our culture which is one of the most puritainical in the world.

Hardy Machia
http://www.freevermont.org/

 

[thetrailboss]

I wondered if someone was going to breath new life into this old thread. :roll:

Next, compare the United States to Canada or Australia and look at the alcohol related traffic fatality rates. The USA has fatality rates 2-3 times higher than these other car dependent cultures.

Alcohol Related Fatalities per 100,000 population
1.7 Australia
2.7 Canada
6.1 United States

The differences are teens in these cultures are taught responsible alcohol use from a young age, and alcohol isn't held as a forbidden fruit in these other cultures, and being drunk is frowned upon by their societies.

True up to a point...but many of the other countries cited have different cultural attitudes.

We like to push the limits in the US. Also, I know that many say, 'folks can drink in the UK at a young age and guess what? They're are less DUI deaths,' and that's partially because most people live in urban areas/small towns that have a thing called public transportation. :wink:

By changing the alcohol culture in the United States we could save 30,000 lives annually. Vermont's often a leader, and if we are concerned about lowering the rates of alcohol traffic fatalities in Vermont and the United States it is time to lower the drinking age to 18 and to allow teens to drink moderate amounts of alcohol when they are out at a restaurant or pub with their parents.

Now come on! From being a teen once, I can tell you that teen years are about finding limits and pushing them.

To allow drinking at that age, well, maybe. But as I said before, studies show that folks are starting to drink now at 16 with the legal age being set at 21. If we push that limit back to 18, then we can extrapolate that 11 or 12 yr olds would be drinking. This would be a massive public health issue. That makes no sense to me...

Teens are not psychologically developed enough to make good decisions...they don't have the experience to understand the consequences. Mix this with inexperienced driving, and we've got a mess.

Also, moderate alcohol drinkers are 40% less likely to have heart attacks than alcohol abusers and abstainers. Moderate alcohol consumption is healthy.

I'm of age and have been for a little while. I can tell you that my responsible drinking came from the lessons I learned from my family and values. Dropping the drinking age my friend does nothing to educate people or introduce these values.

Besides, "drink responsibly" is a line that is kind of ironic considering that alcohol impairs one's ability to make rational decisions. :wink:

 

[dmc]

case in point...

My family has always had guns...
When I was a kid - my Dad taught me about gun safety and let me shoot them....

I never tried to shoot the guns unless he was around because I respected them.

Kids always want what they can't have...

 

[Angus]

mixed feelings on this one - but would fall on side of keeping the legal age at 21. here is my observation about Europeans drinking habits which I admit upfront is a generalization

having worked for a number of european companies and traveled extensively there for work, my observation is that Europeans drink with much greater regularity - likely nearly everyday after work - but not as excessively. I would still guestimate that most patrons upon leaving the bar would be blowing above the legal limit. The big difference that I've observed is a) the availability of public transportation is much greater - so they are not behind the wheel after a stop at the bar & b)they don't drive big SUVs that are more prone to carnage when they do go off the road. I would also say without having looked at any empirical data that in many european countries, the # of days lost or productivity lost due to drinking is greater than here in the US - just my 1st hand observation. remember too that the idea of the subdivision is foreign in most places outside NA - there are plenty of neighborhood pubs and bars located within easy walking distance of your flat.

 

[HardyMachia]

Trailboss, you have a valid point about the insurance increasing. I was talking with one bar owner about the drinking age, and they brought up the insurance issue. The thing is that they already have a problem with insurance. A large part of the problem is the legislature messing with insurance. We've seen the problem with health insurance and workman's comp. The reason the bar owners insurance would go up if the law says the bar owner is responsible, now if we changed the law so that the individual is held responsible for their own actions and the courts followed a similar line of reasoning then the insurance rates would decrease for bar owners.

Hardy

 

[thetrailboss]

case in point...

My family has always had guns...
When I was a kid - my Dad taught me about gun safety and let me shoot them....

I never tried to shoot the guns unless he was around because I respected them.

Kids always want what they can't have...

You just proved my point...nobody has any respect any more.

 

[dmc]

case in point...

My family has always had guns...
When I was a kid - my Dad taught me about gun safety and let me shoot them....

I never tried to shoot the guns unless he was around because I respected them.

Kids always want what they can't have...

You just proved my point...nobody has any respect any more.

Dad also used to let me have a nip of beer now and then and I'm not a raving drunk.. Well most nights I'm not...

 

[HardyMachia]

To allow drinking at that age, well, maybe. But as I said before, studies show that folks are starting to drink now at 16 with the legal age being set at 21. If we push that limit back to 18, then we can extrapolate that 11 or 12 yr olds would be drinking. This would be a massive public health issue. That makes no sense to me...

You are looking at different studies than the Vermont and Federal studies that I'm looking at then.

The studies show that kids still start drinking at around 12-13 -- whether the drinking age is 18 or 21, or with complete prohibition.

Looking specifically at Vermont, Vermont studies show drinking among 16/17/18 year olds has decreased a little bit, but drinking among 8th graders has increased by 17% since 1986 when the drinking age was 18. 17% is the smallest amount, some years have seen more than a 100% increase among 8th graders.

The thread needs to be revived because there are a lot of myths that the prohibitionist and governement continues to put out there that need to be challenged and shown to be false. Once we do that then we can save 60,000 more lives each year in the United States once we reform our bad alcohol policies.

Hardy