New Hampshire v Vermont

[riverc0il]

You prob have a great job now but maybe a consideration should be future jobs or opportunities both for yourself and your kids once they get thru college.
I've heard lots of young ppl move out of VT due to the poor job market.

Given that the OP has already selected two very specific towns, I'm betting one of the three following things: the decision is between positions at Castleton or PSU, healthcare position, or retail management. There isn't much in Plymouth aside from education, healthcare, and very limited retail. Given the clear choice between two different areas, I'm betting education related offerings.

I came here by way of PSU. Once you get a decent job in this area, you're set unless you really screw up. Recent college grads without experience are generally fleeing to Concord, Manchester, and Boston Metro.

 

[witch hobble]

Maybe he is a CVS or Tractor Supply manager. :-D

My 2 cents: I live in Plymouth. I have a good friend who lives in Rutland. They are both regional service centers, Rutland serving a larger area than Plymouth.

I really don't think Rutland compares all that unfavaorably to other small cities of similar size. There is a lot of sprawl, but nice views of the Taconics to the west and the Green Mtn spine to the east. Lots of good recreation in all directions. It is most definitely not quintessential VT as people picture it. So if that is what you are after, you will be disappointed.

Plymouth is the perfect size town for me. It's residential and downtown business zone is removed from the commercial strip out on the TMH. A few restaurants and coffee shops. A few cultural attractions. Very pretty campus. Fully walkable from one end of town to another. Places close by to dissappear into the woods. It does have it's problems, like all communities.

There is a lot of broken glass and crushed Natty Light cans, paper plates and ranch dressing dip containers. Live free or die!

As far as football goes, Plymouth Regional H.S. is a divisional powerhouse, their longtime coach one of the winningest in the land. In 2010 the team actually lost some games for the first time in about 5 years. Lots of tearful 17 year old boys who had never lost before in shock. Personally not into the "futbol Americano", but it is taken pretty serious at all levels in town. The Peewee games have announcers up in the box broadcasting over the PA "Ball carried by #32 Joey Currier. Tackled by #76 Reggie Humperdink" Pop Warner was more of a silent affair back in the day.

 

[SF1966]

The information throughout this thread has been excellent.

My wife has researced Plymouth and surrounding towns and has feels this is the better option than Rutland. We live in a city with a state university and she grew up in a college town. The school size, outdoor recreation, and tax codes are very favorable to us.

Rutland would provide a more than adequate option and far exceeds the quality of life in our current area. We would likely target one of the adjoining communities if this ends up being the better choice. The initial lean to Rutland was based on the size and transition of schools. I did not realize the high school in Plymouth was a "highway" type HS and has the student body size, programs, and athletics that we desire.

We will visit both areas soon if the job materializes, as proposed, as my wife has not been to the New England area in over 20 years.

As far as baseball, does anyone know how the high school program are at Plymouth or Rutland? Do they play a legit season in high school or is it a travel ball area?

 

[Nick]

what is property tax in NH on average?

Let's say you have a $300k house in both places (market value). What's the difference between NH and VT?

 

[WWF-VT]

Here's an old Mike Barnicle column on VT vs. NH

http://boulter.com/nh/barnicle.html

 

[SkiFanE]

what is property tax in NH on average?

Let's say you have a $300k house in both places (market value). What's the difference between NH and VT?

Well..here in Mass it varies greatly from town to town, imagine same in NH. But my sense is, from family/friends I've known that live there, is it is higher in general. And then has fees tacked on. I know in my house, after I pay my property tax and auto excise I pay $0 in fees, ever...no extracurricular school fees, no bus fees, nothing.

Also..unless you work in NH, you pay income tax to the state where you physically work. People that live in NH and work in MA...makes no sense, they pay MA income tax.

But...I want to live where I want to live, and taxes would be the least of my concern (unless I was so close to the edge it mattered), but that's just me...it's only money, and if you like a town/area, so what...you may like it better b/c of how it's taxed anyway lol. You don't get nice playing fields at schools, clean sidewalks and maintained roads unless someone pays, right?!

 

[deadheadskier]

what is property tax in NH on average?

Let's say you have a $300k house in both places (market value). What's the difference between NH and VT?

It varies greatly in both states.

In Vermont, "Gold towns" (most ski/tourism towns with a lot of money) have higher tax rates as a portion of their taxes are used to fund schools in lower income areas.

In NH the tax rates tend to vary based upon property values (higher values = lower rates) and the amount of commercial property in town. If the town is primarily residential with minimal commercial activity, the tax rates tend to be higher.

In my town, the property tax rate is $25.31 per $1000. We fall in the mostly residential / limited commercial category.

So property taxes on a $300K home would run you about $7600/year in my town. Property values are quite low though. It would cost you $500K+ for a similar quality home in the Boston suburbs.

That tax rate seems like a lot to most people, but keep in mind if you have a household income of $100K in VT, you'll pay that much in income taxes and then have to pay property taxes on top of that.

Even with high property tax rates, NH is easily the most tax friendly state in New England.

 

[Angus]

Here's an old Mike Barnicle column on VT vs. NH

http://boulter.com/nh/barnicle.html

Mike Barnicle is a putz

 

[benwhiteskis]

NH, you are closer to Tux. 'Nuff said

 

[Cannonball]

what is property tax in NH on average?

Let's say you have a $300k house in both places (market value). What's the difference between NH and VT?

"on average" isn't the really right way to look at it. It varies by town, so you need to compare actual towns that you might want to live in. Related to this thread, here are some examples for Rutland and Plymouth, plus close-by towns with lower rates:

Plymouth, NH. Rate 2.125%. Tax on $300K house = $6,375
Holderness, NH. Rate 1.316%. Tax on $300K = $3,948

Rutland, VT. Rate 2.35%. Tax on $300K = $7,050
Mendon, VT. Rate 1.53%. Tax on $300K = $4,590

So, pretty comparable. But that doesn't really tell the whole story either because it assumes that equivalent homes have the same values in each place. 2 better metrics are property taxes as a percentage of median income or property taxes as a percent of median house prices. NH and VT are both in the top 10 worst states in the country by both of these measures. So again, mostly a wash.

But again, those are averages. You need to consider your own circumstances. You threw out $300K as the house price example. How about Family income (2-earners) of $150K as an example. (probably the minimum you'd need to get the $300K house). VT income tax rate (for the example bracket) 7.8% = $11,700. NH = 0.

So I don't buy the argument that property taxes in NH are somehow a trade-off against lack of income tax. Certainly not when comparing it against VT which generally has the 4th highest income tax rate in the country and fairly comparable property tax rates to NH.

By these calcs living in Rutland vs Plymouth would cost an extra $675 in prop tax + $11,700 in income tax. There's a $12,000 annual budget for skiing around your new home town of Plymouth!!!

edit: Damn in the time in took me to write this DHS answered the question. The good news is, we said basically the same thing!

 

[riverc0il]

I didn't see that the OP was looking for a $300k house. That is a heck of a lot of house around here. So if the OP is making bank to afford a $300k house, then income tax is probably a very important impact.

I think for most people, it is a lot less of an issue. Obviously, the more you make, the more income tax is going to hurt. And the less you make, the less house you buy and lower property tax you pay. Though as noted above, the variance by town is astounding.

Oops, just noticed that was in response to Nick on the $300k issue, not the OP...

 

[riverc0il]

Here's an old Mike Barnicle column on VT vs. NH

http://boulter.com/nh/barnicle.html

Wow. That is the most inane thing I have read in a long time. Makes Fox News look like professional journalism. It is ironic that many of the things Barnicle faults NH for are actually the same or "worse" (by his standards) in Vermont. He would probably know that if he visited more of Vermont than just Burlington (tongue in cheek assumption based on his writing and clear bias; i.e. "exceptions" for NH liberal/college towns). I always laugh and cringe at over idealized romanticism of Vermont. It really is a great state for many reasons. But there is much more to the place than what most tourists allow themselves to see.

I know it was meant as a humor piece. But part of any good humor is at least a little slice of truth and reality. So it fails miserably.

 

[Cannonball]

I didn't see that the OP was looking for a $300k house. That is a heck of a lot of house around here. So if the OP is making bank to afford a $300k house, then income tax is probably a very important impact.

I think for most people, it is a lot less of an issue. Obviously, the more you make, the more income tax is going to hurt. And the less you make, the less house you buy and lower property tax you pay. Though as noted above, the variance by town is astounding.

Oops, just noticed that was in response to Nick on the $300k issue, not the OP...

Yeah, I thought $300K was kind high for those regions and $150K salary probably is too, but was trying to keep it in line with Nick's example. But as you say, income and home purchase tend to stay in proportion. So I think the example holds up at any level.

Ideally, you'd flip the whole example on it's head. Continue to make the $150K income...but buy a $100K house in a NH town with a low tax rate. Then your income tax savings might almost pay your entire mortgage AND property taxes.

 

[riverc0il]

But who is going to but a 100k home when then are making 150k a year? That is unrealistic.

The thing is that things don't stay in "realistic" proportion. The less you make, the lower your income taxes. The lower your income taxes, the less difference not having to pay them. Someone earning $20k in MA, CT, or RI is going to have minimal tax savings compared to someone making $200k and getting the highest rate. Or to put it another way, the difference for the person only earning $20k/year isn't going to amount to a major purchase or finance or savings opportunity. If someone making $200k can move to NH and retain their salary, they could easily take the savings difference and buy a new car or pay a portion or all of a mortgage, depending on what they buy. Someone making $20k not paying state income tax is going to have a little extra room to breathe and can put the money saved towards car insurance or something.

 

[WWF-VT]

Wow. That is the most inane thing I have read in a long time. Makes Fox News look like professional journalism. It is ironic that many of the things Barnicle faults NH for are actually the same or "worse" (by his standards) in Vermont. He would probably know that if he visited more of Vermont than just Burlington (tongue in cheek assumption based on his writing and clear bias; i.e. "exceptions" for NH liberal/college towns). I always laugh and cringe at over idealized romanticism of Vermont. It really is a great state for many reasons. But there is much more to the place than what most tourists allow themselves to see.

I know it was meant as a humor piece. But part of any good humor is at least a little slice of truth and reality. So it fails miserably.

Barnicle ultimately failed misserably when he got canned from The Boston Globe for lying and plagiarizing

 

[Cannonball]

But who is going to but a 100k home when then are making 150k a year? That is unrealistic.

People who don't like debt. It happens;-)

The thing is that things don't stay in "realistic" proportion. The less you make, the lower your income taxes. The lower your income taxes, the less difference not having to pay them. Someone earning $20k in MA, CT, or RI is going to have minimal tax savings compared to someone making $200k and getting the highest rate. Or to put it another way, the difference for the person only earning $20k/year isn't going to amount to a major purchase or finance or savings opportunity. If someone making $200k can move to NH and retain their salary, they could easily take the savings difference and buy a new car or pay a portion or all of a mortgage, depending on what they buy. Someone making $20k not paying state income tax is going to have a little extra room to breathe and can put the money saved towards car insurance or something.

Right, for those 10-fold differences in income that you use as an example that is probably true. Or in your example awhile back: you didn't notice the VT property tax much.....because you were renting! At the $20K level people probably aren't thinking about home purchases, and therefore property tax, at all. But I assume the OP isn't going to be relocated from the Southeast to the Northeast with a family of 5 for a $20K salary. So the examples have to fall in the middle.

That's why I mentioned state property tax as a proportion of income. Depending on whose stats you read, NH and VT are the 2nd & 3rd worst states for that or 2nd and 9th. Either way, both pretty bad. AND their property tax rates are pretty comparable. But VT has one of the highest income taxes in the country and NH has the lowest. So call property tax a wash and take the income tax benefit in NH... even if it only allows you to pay the car insurance or something.

 

[deadheadskier]

So if the OP is making bank to afford a $300k house, then income tax is probably a very important impact.

I think for most people, it is a lot less of an issue. ..

disagree. I think for lower income people, the income tax savings of living in NH is MORE of an issue/benefit than it is for higher income tax individuals.

Someone making $50K a year in Vermont is going to pay $3400 a year in state income tax. Someone making $150K a year in Vermont would have an income tax bill of $11,700. I think saving $3400 a year for someone making $50K will have a much greater impact on their financial life than the $150K earner saving $11,700.

 

[nelsapbm]

Keep in mind that in Vermont, if you make less than $90K you get a property tax rebate. Considering average salaries in VT are much lower than 90k there are a heck of a lot of people who don't pay as much property tax as someone from the outside looking in thinks they do.
http://www.vermontrealestatetoday.com/newsletter/vtrealestatetaxes.html

 

[UVSHTSTRM]

what is property tax in NH on average?

Let's say you have a $300k house in both places (market value). What's the difference between NH and VT?

NH property taxes/overall town taxes can go form one end of the spectrum to the other. Generally a place that is more wealthy has lower taxes, but housing prices are much higher. I live in Claremont...very blue collar, has a fair amount of commuters to Leb, Hanover, etc. However, Claremont has the highest property tax rates/town taxes in the state. Why, well there is very little industrial and commercial tax base. I have a house that is probably valued at around 150k and we over 5k a year....I think overall it is $40 per $1000. Go to Lebanon, the same house with the same land probably runs about 200k + with half+/- the taxes, go to Hanover and the same house probably around a half million with even lower taxes.

 

[SF1966]

Y'all are good. Until wife get job, year 3, 100k annual. Will purchase less than $400, target is $300,000 and put $150 down...