New Stuff at NE areas this winter

[WJenness]

So how's everything coming together accross the Northeast for new stuff this winter?

Two I've been following have been are Sunday River's Chondola and Loon's new trails on South Peak.

The Chondola at SR is moving along nicely (From what I can tell), the towers are scheduled to be flown into place starting on or about October 1st, the base terminal was started on last week... SR has set up a website/blog to track the progress of the lift: www.chondola.com

One new trail opening on South Peak at Loon this year has been named Rip Saw, and it will be Loon's first double black rated trail. I was in Lincoln over the weekend, and the trail is evident from town. In an email I read it said, "Rip Saw starts steep and ends with classic New England twists and turns before connecting with Cruiser." I'm looking forward to checking this one out, hopefully it'll be after some fresh snow, as Loon + Steep + New Trail might get interesting if it hasn't snowed in a while. The other new trail is called Escape Route and it provides parking lot access from Cruiser... Nothing too exciting there.\

What's happening that you know about? Post developments / progress in this thread.

-w

 

[highpeaksdrifter]

Lookout Mt. the new pod at Whiteface. Here's some pics of 2 of it's trails that I took on Sept. 13th.

http://forums.skiadk.com/modules.ph...ame=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php

I wrote up some info about them in this thread at SKIADK in case any of you want to know what the pics are.

http://forums.skiadk.com/about1894.html

 

[ComeBackMudPuddles]

http://forums.alpinezone.com/31968-2008-2009-northeast-ski-area-improvements.html#post288995

 

[andrec10]

Hunter Improvements...

Yeah, getting rid of Charlie Knopp is a huge improvement for Hunter. I remember once last seaon he would not let some of the younger race kids on the lift as they were lapping doing gates. The coaches were at the top and bottom of the course watching them, so how could they ride up the lift. He was such an A-HOLE!

 

[WJenness]

http://forums.alpinezone.com/31968-2008-2009-northeast-ski-area-improvements.html#post288995

I remember that thread (probably should have referenced it in my opening post). I created this one wondering about the progress of the improvements we discussed before. Time's getting short to finish some of these projects, and I was wondering if they were all progressing as planned.

-w

 

[Geoff]

Killington has announced the earliest closing date since 1959.

 

[ski_resort_observer]

Some small but important inprovements at the Bush. In addition to the expansion of Gatehouse Lodge the Bush will be taking folks up the hill in a 12 person Sno-Cat.

http://forums.skimrv.com/viewtopic.php?t=1570

 

[SpinmasterK]

Killington has announced the earliest closing date since 1959.

Actually, last season's announced closing was April 13. We extended it to the 20th based upon snow conditions and business levels. We're well prepared to do the same again for the 2008/09 season if conditions and business levels permit.

 

[icedtea]

Actually, last season's announced closing was April 13. We extended it to the 20th based upon snow conditions and business levels. We're well prepared to do the same again for the 2008/09 season if conditions and business levels permit.

it seems killington dedicated itself to improving the on mountain experience this year with all the money put into the mountain.

now with all the positive feeling it would bring why cannot they spend they minimal extra amount of money and keep superstar open to may 1?

 

[Newpylong]

Lookout Mt. the new pod at Whiteface. Here's some pics of 2 of it's trails that I took on Sept. 13th.

http://forums.skiadk.com/modules.ph...ame=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php

I wrote up some info about them in this thread at SKIADK in case any of you want to know what the pics are.

http://forums.skiadk.com/about1894.html

Looks like a good run....

 

[Geoff]

Actually, last season's announced closing was April 13. We extended it to the 20th based upon snow conditions and business levels. We're well prepared to do the same again for the 2008/09 season if conditions and business levels permit.

I can't let this go by without a good Tuesday afternoon rant since this is my one huge issue with the "New Killington". This rant is directed at people above your pay grade so please don't take it personally.

You closed on April 20th last year with a full parking lot and edge to edge cover. On April 21th, you still had edge to edge cover that lasted into May and told everybody to go away destroying a tradition that spans generations. It smacked of Soviet Central Planning where the Central Committee put a date on a spreadsheet and blindly stuck to it ignoring all else until it was hopeless to push the closing date out more than a week. You now run the K1 all summer with a miniscule number of cars in the parking lot and staff selling tickets, food, and running the mountain biking operation. You have done absolutely nothing to make your customer base trust this statement you just made. I'm basically OK with everything else the mountain is doing but you have done nothing to earn trust about a closing date beyond April 19th. Killington is not Park City where the tourons who fly in and drop big bucks vanish on April 1. You have a gigantic geographic advantage of a huge drive-to market and nothing closer with elevations, exposure, terrain, or snowmaking capacity to provide a reliable spring product. You should be marketing the hell out of it since it's your competitive advantage. In previous years prior to ASC taking Killington discount, spring season passes more than funded blowing snow, energy, and staffing to make it deep into May. You even had the balls to fly a "The King of Spring" banner at Bear last year. Shameless and a lie. You should have run at least one lift last year into May because it was the right thing to do for your customers. You've blown the trust and don't deserve to be cut any slack on this one until you prove otherwise. I'm from Missouri. Show me.

 

[SpinmasterK]

I can't let this go by without a good Tuesday afternoon rant since this is my one huge issue with the "New Killington". This rant is directed at people above your pay grade so please don't take it personally.

You closed on April 20th last year with a full parking lot and edge to edge cover. On April 21th, you still had edge to edge cover that lasted into May and told everybody to go away destroying a tradition that spans generations. It smacked of Soviet Central Planning where the Central Committee put a date on a spreadsheet and blindly stuck to it ignoring all else until it was hopeless to push the closing date out more than a week. You now run the K1 all summer with a miniscule number of cars in the parking lot and staff selling tickets, food, and running the mountain biking operation. You have done absolutely nothing to make your customer base trust this statement you just made. I'm basically OK with everything else the mountain is doing but you have done nothing to earn trust about a closing date beyond April 19th. Killington is not Park City where the tourons who fly in and drop big bucks vanish on April 1. You have a gigantic geographic advantage of a huge drive-to market and nothing closer with elevations, exposure, terrain, or snowmaking capacity to provide a reliable spring product. You should be marketing the hell out of it since it's your competitive advantage. In previous years prior to ASC taking Killington discount, spring season passes more than funded blowing snow, energy, and staffing to make it deep into May. You even had the balls to fly a "The King of Spring" banner at Bear last year. Shameless and a lie. You should have run at least one lift last year into May because it was the right thing to do for your customers. You've blown the trust and don't deserve to be cut any slack on this one until you prove otherwise. I'm from Missouri. Show me.

Geoff, you bring up some valid points, especially pertaining to the heritage of Killington and skiing into May. Indeed, we appreciate you passion for the mountain as well! However, there comes a point when all the money you put into the bucket during the ski season is there for you to invest back into the mountain, and you must decide on how you're going to spend it. Do you take money out of the bucket to keep the lifts open another one, two or three weeks, or do you use it toward improvements for the following season?
Obviously you know what choice we made, and we are committed to operating a financially responsible company so we can continue to invest into our mountain.
Do we want to stay open as long as possible? You bet! But, it has to make financial sense based upon business demand and snow/weather conditions.

 

[deadheadskier]

Geoff, you bring up some valid points, especially pertaining to the heritage of Killington and skiing into May. Indeed, we appreciate you passion for the mountain as well! However, there comes a point when all the money you put into the bucket during the ski season is there for you to invest back into the mountain, and you must decide on how you're going to spend it. Do you take money out of the bucket to keep the lifts open another one, two or three weeks, or do you use it toward improvements for the following season?
Obviously you know what choice we made, and we are committed to operating a financially responsible company so we can continue to invest into our mountain.
Do we want to stay open as long as possible? You bet! But, it has to make financial sense based upon business demand and snow/weather conditions.

Then why run the Gondola during summer and MTB operations? There is no way those are profitable decisions.

If I were a Killington skier, I'd be in Geoff's camp on this one. I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who wasn't.

 

[Tin Woodsman]

Geoff, you bring up some valid points, especially pertaining to the heritage of Killington and skiing into May. Indeed, we appreciate you passion for the mountain as well! However, there comes a point when all the money you put into the bucket during the ski season is there for you to invest back into the mountain, and you must decide on how you're going to spend it. Do you take money out of the bucket to keep the lifts open another one, two or three weeks, or do you use it toward improvements for the following season?
Obviously you know what choice we made, and we are committed to operating a financially responsible company so we can continue to invest into our mountain.
Do we want to stay open as long as possible? You bet! But, it has to make financial sense based upon business demand and snow/weather conditions.

Tom -

I applaud you for wading in and responding to Geoff on this subject. Before this thread gets destroyed, please allow me a few responses.

1) As deadheadskier pointed out, it's clear that not all decisions are taken on this strict cost/benefit basis. The paltry summer crowds surely could not have justified your operation of the second most expensive lift on the hill.

2) Your draconian, and frankly ill-advised, retrenchment of midweek services at both Pico and Killington, while perhaps following this formula to a T, were subsequently proven to be fools gold. This conclusion was self-evident to anyone who has spent more than 5 minutes at Killington when the changes were announced, and it was confirmed when several of those changes were rolled back for the coming season. This has the hallmarks of a ready, fire, aim decision-making process which don't exactly inspire confidence with respect to your ability to chose the appropriate closing date.

3) You had already spent the vast majority of the money required to remain open in the form of the copious amounts of man-made snow that were lying around with no one to ski on it. The incremental costs to run the Superstar quad (at a minimum) and perhaps the Snowdon triple and Canyon quad while keeping the KBL open are relatively small in comparison. Given the brand equity/identity that has been associated with K, it would seem reasonable to announce that you are going to stay open for daily ops until a date certain, and thereafter will remain open on weekends only for as long as the snowcover allows. Your brand, and your geographic advantages enable you to do this much more easily than anywhere else.

4) The public pronouncements and acitons of your competitors to the north frankly make you look silly on this issue. Jay Peak says it doesn't make a lot of money, but it doesn't lose money for them, and it's anyway the right thing to do for their most loyal skiers. Sugarbush clearly has the same calculus. Why are you different?

5) Announcing such an early closing date pre-season has a chilling effect on all business activity in the area beyond that date, regardless of whether you make the last minute decision to extend the season. It's too late at that point for most businesses - their seasonal employees have their lives to return to. In a world in which you and your partner have a significant financial interest in making nice nice with the town, why would you antagonize them further with this early closing policy?

 

[RootDKJ]

We could talk about the new K style until Greg's lawn gets frosty, but since the thread is about new stuff at ski areas, I'm surprised that some of the K regulars didn't post the K blog of their improvements. Some really nice photos on here

http://insider.killington.com/

 

[Geoff]

Tom -

I applaud you for wading in and responding to Geoff on this subject. Before this thread gets destroyed, please allow me a few responses.

1) As deadheadskier pointed out, it's clear that not all decisions are taken on this strict cost/benefit basis. The paltry summer crowds surely could not have justified your operation of the second most expensive lift on the hill.

I suppose the counter argument is that it is important for Killington to operate as a 4 season resort as part of the real estate development venture with SP Land. They operate a golf course. They experimented with horses over at Pico this year. Running the K1 for mountain biking and lugging grain fed tourons up the hill is a part of that. The real profit is in the real estate development and the summer operation doesn't need to be a money maker.

2) Your draconian, and frankly ill-advised, retrenchment of midweek services at both Pico and Killington, while perhaps following this formula to a T, were subsequently proven to be fools gold. This conclusion was self-evident to anyone who has spent more than 5 minutes at Killington when the changes were announced, and it was confirmed when several of those changes were rolled back for the coming season. This has the hallmarks of a ready, fire, aim decision-making process which don't exactly inspire confidence with respect to your ability to chose the appropriate closing date.

I have no problem with it. Pico on a 5 day operating schedule really simplifies POWDR's staffing problems. You aren't juggling days off and you aren't paying overtime. Killington is a weekend place. I think it's just fine that you can't get food at KBL or Bear. POWDR discovered that they needed to staff the KBL bar since no advanced skier in the known universe is going to park in the main lots and ski down to Snowshed. The Skyeship is a very underutlilized lift midweek. I think it's running on a 7-day schedule this year because of the affluence and influence of the homeowners. There are people over there who could buy Killington out of cash flow. They were able to get the operating schedule changed from a 3 day schedule to a 5 day schedule last winter. It's back to a 7 day schedule this year. For the weekend warrior that makes up 90% of their customer base, it simply doesn't matter.

3) You had already spent the vast majority of the money required to remain open in the form of the copious amounts of man-made snow that were lying around with no one to ski on it. The incremental costs to run the Superstar quad (at a minimum) and perhaps the Snowdon triple and Canyon quad while keeping the KBL open are relatively small in comparison. Given the brand equity/identity that has been associated with K, it would seem reasonable to announce that you are going to stay open for daily ops until a date certain, and thereafter will remain open on weekends only for as long as the snowcover allows. Your brand, and your geographic advantages enable you to do this much more easily than anywhere else.

That is the consensus among their long time customer base. It's the consensus of former employees. From what I hear, it was also a consensus among most of the employees and created some friction.

4) The public pronouncements and acitons of your competitors to the north frankly make you look silly on this issue. Jay Peak says it doesn't make a lot of money, but it doesn't lose money for them, and it's anyway the right thing to do for their most loyal skiers. Sugarbush clearly has the same calculus. Why are you different?

Win Smith certainly won over some converts. Steve Wright was always a straight shooter when he was at Killington and I have no reason to doubt him when he claimed that Killington was profitable running their spring skiing operaton and that Jay eeks out a small profit from it. I still think that the new owners made a plan a year ago and blindly stuck to it until it was too late to alter it very much. They said they were going to be conservative about setting expectations and then try to exceed them. In most things, I think they achieved that. The closing was the exception.

5) Announcing such an early closing date pre-season has a chilling effect on all business activity in the area beyond that date, regardless of whether you make the last minute decision to extend the season. It's too late at that point for most businesses - their seasonal employees have their lives to return to. In a world in which you and your partner have a significant financial interest in making nice nice with the town, why would you antagonize them further with this early closing policy?

It's not so much the direct impact of an April 20th closing on businesses. The major ones all close in April anyways. The Wobbly, Pickle Barrel, Charity's, and Sushi Yoshi have all closed in April. It's the indirect impact of chasing away the share house people that has me concerned. A number of them will be up above the Dougie line this winter tracking out your personally maintained woods.

Since this is a hijack and the topic is new things at ski areas, I will add that the new lift replacing the Sky Peak Quad and closing the Snowshed crossover will change the way Killington skis. I think it will be for the better. I walked down Bittersweet on Sunday after walking up the Bucklin Trail. I eyeballed the rerouted trail that has been chainsawed but not logged yet. I think that was smart to make an intermediate route to KBL though I don't understand why they felt they needed to take Bittersweet headwall off the map when all they needed to do was put a speed control gate at the bottom. That decision can be changed with nothing more than dropping a rope, blowing some snow, and printing a new trail map. The resort is cleaned up dramatically after being ignored all these years. They've done a huge amount of work on the snowmaking pipe. Lifts are painted and I presume they're spending money on maintaining drive motors and moving parts given the amount of pickup trucks I see out on the hill. The resort really did get better last year and it's a delight on what were formerly very busy periods on weekends and holidays. The perpetual slam on Killington as a zoo on weekends has mostly gone away. The base lodges need a wrecking ball but you can at least now get a seat in the lodge.

I'll continue to take them to task on their closing date. What they did last April was reprehensible. I think the way it should have been dealt with was a very public "We screwed up and did the wrong thing last year. We won't be blowing a big May base but we will run a lift on sunny weekend days as long as we can push around snow to make an uninterrupted way down." I suspect that the way Killington is dealing with this is, at best, a half-truth.

 

[Tin Woodsman]

I suppose the counter argument is that it is important for Killington to operate as a 4 season resort as part of the real estate development venture with SP Land. They operate a golf course. They experimented with horses over at Pico this year. Running the K1 for mountain biking and lugging grain fed tourons up the hill is a part of that. The real profit is in the real estate development and the summer operation doesn't need to be a money maker.

But yet they continue to operate in a manner (early closing, half-truth marketing, reduced skier visits, push-polling, etc..) which will tend to alienate them from the very people who hold the keys to the village kingdom. Unless they make a substantial about face, I think your scenario of a hundred single family McMansion lots (which doesn't require a PUD) will come to fruition.

I have no problem with it. Pico on a 5 day operating schedule really simplifies POWDR's staffing problems. You aren't juggling days off and you aren't paying overtime. Killington is a weekend place. I think it's just fine that you can't get food at KBL or Bear. POWDR discovered that they needed to staff the KBL bar since no advanced skier in the known universe is going to park in the main lots and ski down to Snowshed. The Skyeship is a very underutlilized lift midweek. I think it's running on a 7-day schedule this year because of the affluence and influence of the homeowners. There are people over there who could buy Killington out of cash flow. They were able to get the operating schedule changed from a 3 day schedule to a 5 day schedule last winter. It's back to a 7 day schedule this year. For the weekend warrior that makes up 90% of their customer base, it simply doesn't matter.

Pico is noise level. But the Skyeship decision was an embarassment and they went too far with KBL. Also, there will eventually be a reckoning when it comes to their poorly priced childrens programs.

I'll continue to take them to task on their closing date. What they did last April was reprehensible. I think the way it should have been dealt with was a very public "We screwed up and did the wrong thing last year. We won't be blowing a big May base but we will run a lift on sunny weekend days as long as we can push around snow to make an uninterrupted way down." I suspect that the way Killington is dealing with this is, at best, a half-truth.

You mean like blaming the BMMC alcohol policy changes on faceless VT state bureaucrats?