Skier speed trap hell

[BenedictGomez]

the Swiss train line reaches almost all the villages people live, even deep in the mountain. There're lift ticket machine right at the station. Lockers to stow away your street shoes and backpack. The ski lifts are visible from the train. Now I call that INFRASTRUCTURE!

Maybe, but that's not terribly difficult to do when skiing represents a big part of your nation's ethos, a decent contributor to GDP, and the entire country is only the size of roughly Vermont & New Hampshire combined. It's just not practical here.

 

[gregnye]

Maybe, but that's not terribly difficult to do when skiing represents a big part of your nation's ethos, a decent contributor to GDP, and the entire country is only the size of roughly Vermont & New Hampshire combined. It's just not practical here.

I could see it being practical in Salt Lake City Utah, to replace the bus system. Or maybe even Denver to get to the Summit County Area.

 

[x10003q]

The only reason education has rise as dramatically as it has is due to the absurd student loan expenditures by the federal government (a good overview below). The government is handing out student loans like candy, which in turn is gamed by the colleges who then increase professor salaries, tuition fees, and not to mention silly spending on things like 85" HDTVs in gyms, etc... Bonus points for kids spending $200,000 on a college "education" (term used loosely) with a major in 16th Century Greek Philosophy or Women's Studies, who will never be able to crawl out of debt due to their useless degree.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/presto...will-cost-taxpayers-170-billion/#59f1a6b762a9

There is not one mention in the Forbes article that since 2005, it is nearly impossible to discharge a student loan (Federal or private) in a bankruptcy. This is one of the driving forces behind the loans being handed out to anybody and everybody and the increase in college and trade school costs. Schools know that anybody can get loans now and have jacked up the costs to go dramatically.

 

[abc]

Maybe, but that's not terribly difficult to do when skiing represents a big part of your nation's ethos, a decent contributor to GDP, and the entire country is only the size of roughly Vermont & New Hampshire combined. It's just not practical here.

So it should be even less difficult for the state of Vermont, the size of HALF of Switzerland and skiing is its main economy, to do the same then?

 

[deadheadskier]

If VT had half Switzerland's population at 4+ million, maybe

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[abc]

If VT had half Switzerland's population at 4+ million, maybe

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Except Vermont doesn’t have half as many ski resorts as Switzerland. So a lot less work.

But no, that would deprive a big chunk of speeding ticket fines to all those villages along Rt 4 and Rt 100

 

[deadheadskier]

My point was Switzerland has a higher critical mass of residents and likely tourists too from all those ski resorts to make a rail system more viable financially. As is, I'd imagine the system in Switzerland is heavily subsidized

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[benski]

My point was Switzerland has a higher critical mass of residents and likely tourists too from all those ski resorts to make a rail system more viable financially. As is, I'd imagine the system in Switzerland is heavily subsidized

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Its actually really expensive to ride, which is probably what does it. It could actually be cheeper to fly to resorts if you have enough people to fill a 737.

 

[deadheadskier]

What's a typical ticket cost?

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[Jully]

Its actually really expensive to ride, which is probably what does it. It could actually be cheeper to fly to resorts if you have enough people to fill a 737.

Still subsidized, I almost guarantee it. There's no way Switzerland gets enough traffic to pay for trains through that terrain. Covering operating costs, maybe, but pay down debt or make capital purchases, no way.

 

[VTKilarney]

My point was Switzerland has a higher critical mass of residents and likely tourists too from all those ski resorts to make a rail system more viable financially. As is, I'd imagine the system in Switzerland is heavily subsidized

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Not to mention a whole lot more money than Vermont.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Not to mention a whole lot more money than Vermont.

Sounds like more fake school zones are needed.

 

[sull1102]

Just went to Laax by way of train and bus from Zurich in the middle of a couple week trip around the EU. While yes, their trains are impossibly better than our PATHETIC railroads(might be more passionate about trains than skiing) in this country, they do pay for it. Taxes are pretty high and an ice coffee will run ya $8, Switzerland may be the most beautiful place on the planet, but damn do they make ya pay! EXCEPT ON LIFT TICKETS!!!! I PAID $80 FOR A FULL DAY. Ugh I'm getting going, the saddle leather interior of the gondola, the Porsche designed bubble 6 that angles itself so you can see more scenery not the back of the chair in front of you, the place was heaven.

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[benski]

What's a typical ticket cost?

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Zermatt is in the 70's and I think Andermatt was in the 60's.

 

[abc]

Still subsidized, I almost guarantee it. There's no way Switzerland gets enough traffic to pay for trains through that terrain. Covering operating costs, maybe, but pay down debt or make capital purchases, no way.

The train system are subsidized, I'm told. How much of that goes to the mountain region vs how much goes to inter-city trains I know not.

The train were not just for skiers alone. People who live in those villages use the train to go into the city too.

But that's the point. For people who said trains impractical because it can't replace cars, you're all WRONG! But you are all RIGHT at the same time. Trains are not to REPLACE cars, it's to SUPPLEMENT car journeys. It CAN BE very practical without replacing cars. Provided it's well developed to serve the population movement pattern.

It's already happening in the US if you care to look. Just about all major metropolitan areas in the northeast have well developed train systems. New York City, Washington DC, Boston, even San Francisco has commuter trains. The trains are heavily used. The demands are clearly there, for those who are not too blind about its practicality.

 

[2planks2coasts]

A. Speed traps that are more for revenue than for safety are a bad thing. That said, the risk of pedestrian death in an auto vs ped crash increases very rapidly with the speed of the car, so slow down.

B. There are heaps of ways to go skiing without a car. I haven't owned one in 20 years, though I did rent one for a 3 day Stratton/ Okemo trip this year and did a Zipcar carpool to Windham in late March. Windham, Hunter, Mt. Peter, Belleayre all have bus service daily from Manhattan. The resorts further north have what are essentially redeye buses leaving from NY/NJ/LI in the wee hours. Most folks sleep the first few hours, then there's a coffee stop near Albany. The aforementioned Thunder Ridge and Wachusett ski trains are an easy and cheap day trip option. Gore had a ski train, but I'm not sure it ran this season. Tremblant is super easy to get to from Montreal by bus. Out west, SLC is the obvious winner for car free access, but pretty much every major western city has reasonable day trip ski buses. Even Phoenix.

C. While there will always be a significant number of Americans who need a car, that number will likely shrink with improved urban planning, telecommuting, rideshare services, etc. In 1983, 87% of American 19 year olds had Drivers Licenses. By 2015, that was down to 70%.

D. Of course trains in Switzerland are subsidized. All transport is, including highways, airports, etc, etc. It's all about priorities. The Swiss spend about 13% of their annual budget on transport. The US spends about 2% of the Federal Budget on transport. The states kick in a percentage as well, but total per capita spending is not even close to comparable.

Enjoy the freedom of your car, I'll have that second beer at apres without fear of a DUI, maybe even have one on the bus as we roll down the thruway.

 

[sull1102]

A. Speed traps that are more for revenue than for safety are a bad thing. That said, the risk of pedestrian death in an auto vs ped crash increases very rapidly with the speed of the car, so slow down.

B. There are heaps of ways to go skiing without a car. I haven't owned one in 20 years, though I did rent one for a 3 day Stratton/ Okemo trip this year and did a Zipcar carpool to Windham in late March. Windham, Hunter, Mt. Peter, Belleayre all have bus service daily from Manhattan. The resorts further north have what are essentially redeye buses leaving from NY/NJ/LI in the wee hours. Most folks sleep the first few hours, then there's a coffee stop near Albany. The aforementioned Thunder Ridge and Wachusett ski trains are an easy and cheap day trip option. Gore had a ski train, but I'm not sure it ran this season. Tremblant is super easy to get to from Montreal by bus. Out west, SLC is the obvious winner for car free access, but pretty much every major western city has reasonable day trip ski buses. Even Phoenix.

C. While there will always be a significant number of Americans who need a car, that number will likely shrink with improved urban planning, telecommuting, rideshare services, etc. In 1983, 87% of American 19 year olds had Drivers Licenses. By 2015, that was down to 70%.

D. Of course trains in Switzerland are subsidized. All transport is, including highways, airports, etc, etc. It's all about priorities. The Swiss spend about 13% of their annual budget on transport. The US spends about 2% of the Federal Budget on transport. The states kick in a percentage as well, but total per capita spending is not even close to comparable.

Enjoy the freedom of your car, I'll have that second beer at apres without fear of a DUI, maybe even have one on the bus as we roll down the thruway.

Having moved to Vermont from Boston in the last couple years this comes off as a city guy taking. Up here cars are going nowhere, they are the ONLY form of transportation for most people around me. You will never see infrastructure in rural areas like you see overseas where every village gets quality service.

For those who may not know, Trump's guy running Amtrak has actually been cutting things left and right and is now proposing cutting all long distance trains so we're heading in the other direction. Americans aren't used to the train and have an overall not great perception of it and then Amtrak is just barely better than a Greyhound. It's not like Europe where seemingly every train station is a gorgeous cathedral and the trains are modern, clean, fast, and very good looking both in and out.

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[2planks2coasts]

Having moved to Vermont from Boston in the last couple years this comes off as a city guy taking. Up here cars are going nowhere, they are the ONLY form of transportation for most people around me. You will never see infrastructure in rural areas like you see overseas where every village gets quality service.

For those who may not know, Trump's guy running Amtrak has actually been cutting things left and right and is now proposing cutting all long distance trains so we're heading in the other direction. Americans aren't used to the train and have an overall not great perception of it and then Amtrak is just barely better than a Greyhound. It's not like Europe where seemingly every train station is a gorgeous cathedral and the trains are modern, clean, fast, and very good looking both in and out.

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Of course it sounds like a city guy talking. Though I have lived car free in rural Maine and New Mexico as well. the 20% of Americans who live in rural areas is the significant portion I was referring to that will always need a car, and they should have well maintained roads to drive them on. An ever increasing number live in suburban or urban areas though, and their need for a vehicle of their own is likely to decrease even further. The point is they can still ski or ride without owning a car.

While this is a ski / snowboard forum, Infrastructure requires spending and thus any discussion of it is inherently political. We as a country would rather spend our billions on things other than infrastructure.

 

[BenedictGomez]

It's already happening in the US if you care to look. Just about all major metropolitan areas in the northeast have well developed train systems. New York City, Washington DC, Boston, even San Francisco has commuter trains. The trains are heavily used. The demands are clearly there, for those who are not too blind about its practicality.

It's not practical at all when it's a massive cost center. In all of America, there is only one Amtrak train route that is profitable, and that is Boston to DC (via NYC & Philly). Other than that relatively short route, Amtrak is a major taxpayer-sucking failure. Keep the Boston to DC route, and let the rest of it die would be my recommendation.

 

[abc]

It's not practical at all when it's a massive cost center. In all of America, there is only one Amtrak train route that is profitable, and that is Boston to DC (via NYC & Philly). Other than that relatively short route, Amtrak is a major taxpayer-sucking failure. Keep the Boston to DC route, and let the rest of it die would be my recommendation.

For a guy living in northern Jersey to advocate eliminating trains, all those 10+ lines of Jersey Transit trains needs to go! I'm sure the roads of northern Jersey will have no trouble absorbing all those train riders getting into their personal cars!

BTW, the roads are also a "cost center". Better remove them except the ones that survive on tolls.:roll: