Packed Pow

[billski]

When I think of packed pow, I think of the resorts just south of Buffalo NY as the ultimate.
Real PP, with not a sound under your boards anywhere, dry, cold windless days and nights, with the snow just incessantly continuing to fall. Other than powder skiing, I can't think of any other time when I felt like I was skiing on creamy, silky smooth, turn-able, consistent pp.

 

[riverc0il]

Ahhh, packed powder. The most over used and misunderstood term in snow conditions reporting. Somehow, the snow conditions reporting sector of the industry has corrupted that term to mean "non-icy snow whether groomed or not". But to me, packed powder is just what those two words mean when combined, powder that has been packed down by skier traffic which suggest ungroomed. Days when folks can ski true packed powder open to close are almost as rare as powder days, generally because packed powder is only viable immediately following a snow storm until it is either groomed, scraped, iced, or hard packed due to either weather or traffic.

Packed Pow gets a big thumbs up from me. But not as the industry defines it.

 

[marcski]

Ahhh, packed powder. The most over used and misunderstood term in snow conditions reporting. Somehow, the snow conditions reporting sector of the industry has corrupted that term to mean "non-icy snow whether groomed or not". But to me, packed powder is just what those two words mean when combined, powder that has been packed down by skier traffic which suggest ungroomed. Days when folks can ski true packed powder open to close are almost as rare as powder days, generally because packed powder is only viable immediately following a snow storm until it is either groomed, scraped, iced, or hard packed due to either weather or traffic.

Packed Pow gets a big thumbs up from me. But not as the industry defines it.

Interesting. I do agree with you in that the term is overused and often misused. However, I disagree with your interpretation of the definition of the term. I think the term is as you suggest just what it means..but packed powder to me means fresh snow that was packed down by a groomer without having any ill-effects from above-freezing temps. To me, your definition of packed powder, is just ungroomed terrain....which is different than packed powder.

 

[riverc0il]

Interesting. I do agree with you in that the term is overused and often misused. However, I disagree with your interpretation of the definition of the term. I think the term is as you suggest just what it means..but packed powder to me means fresh snow that was packed down by a groomer without having any ill-effects from above-freezing temps. To me, your definition of packed powder, is just ungroomed terrain....which is different than packed powder.

I disagree. Ungroomed terrain has a wide variety of conditions (e.g. wind blown, powder, dust on crust, crust, icy, loose snow, firm, etc.). In a matter of fact, ungroomed snow can have a wider variety of differing condition denotations than groomed snow. Most ungroomed snow is not packed powder most days out of the year.

I would suggest that a groomer has ill-effects by default on snow quality. Groomed snow never feels like true packed powder that has been packed by skier traffic rather than a groomer. "Groomed packed powder" would be a better term for such conditions to differentiate it by industry standards as my interpretation is obviously counter to accepted industry understanding.

 

[psyflyer]

When I think of packed pow, I think of the resorts just south of Buffalo NY as the ultimate.
Real PP, with not a sound under your boards anywhere, dry, cold windless days and nights, with the snow just incessantly continuing to fall. Other than powder skiing, I can't think of any other time when I felt like I was skiing on creamy, silky smooth, turn-able, consistent pp.

Im off to Bretton Woods this morning and I shall find out pretty soon what their version of packed powder is... Im thinking its not the buffalo-style one... Better than nothing I suppose.

PS - My definition of packed powder was snow packed in by groomers which packs it together...

 

[Sky]

At this point in the season....I'd be happy to have any of those conditions.

Bill...I think of the times when I "thought" I was skiing PP (there...everybody OK with that? :> ) and remember hearing the squeak of the cold snow under the skis....at least as I sakte away from the top of the lift.

Oh man....SOON!

 

[marcski]

I disagree. Ungroomed terrain has a wide variety of conditions (e.g. wind blown, powder, dust on crust, crust, icy, loose snow, firm, etc.). In a matter of fact, ungroomed snow can have a wider variety of differing condition denotations than groomed snow. Most ungroomed snow is not packed powder most days out of the year.

I would suggest that a groomer has ill-effects by default on snow quality. Groomed snow never feels like true packed powder that has been packed by skier traffic rather than a groomer. "Groomed packed powder" would be a better term for such conditions to differentiate it by industry standards as my interpretation is obviously counter to accepted industry understanding.

I agree with what you're saying here. My only disagreement was your interpretation of what ski areas mean by the term "packed powder". I think most ski areas (especially in the east) when reporting "packed powder" actually have ran a groomer over the terrain.

 

[riverc0il]

I agree with what you're saying here. My only disagreement was your interpretation of what ski areas mean by the term "packed powder". I think most ski areas (especially in the east) when reporting "packed powder" actually have ran a groomer over the terrain.

I think we are in complete agreement though as I fully agree that ski areas use "packed powder" to mean "non-icy groomed snow". Which is my big objection, ski areas use that term for day old powder that has been groomed right through man made snow groomed every day for 30 days since the last natural snow fall that is firm and fast but not icy or hard pack. It is too broad a definition as used by the ski areas.

 

[Harvey]

I think the reason that "packed powder" is overused is marketing. If you want to maintain any credibility at all you can't use "powder" unless it has snowed a significant amount in the last day or so.

But everyone wants to include the magic word in their conditions report. Packed powder just sounds better than "cutup" or whatever else you use to describe all that good skiing on natural snow that can't be called "powder."

With cold temps and maybe proper farming, manmade can be fun to ski. Many times that's what you're skiing, on the trails, a few cold days after a rain and freeze. And even a little natural snow mixed in can really improve that stuff.

At Gore, after a rain/freeze, when they get surfaces to the point where they are edgeable and fun again - they go from calling it machine groomed, to packed powder. It's total BS, but we all know what they mean, and the info is useful.

 

[bvibert]

I think we are in complete agreement though as I fully agree that ski areas use "packed powder" to mean "non-icy groomed snow". Which is my big objection, ski areas use that term for day old powder that has been groomed right through man made snow groomed every day for 30 days since the last natural snow fall that is firm and fast but not icy or hard pack. It is too broad a definition as used by the ski areas.

I agree with Steve. To me the term 'packed powder' means relatively fresh powder packed down by skier traffic. Once the groomer passes over it becomes something else. Not to say that it can't be good skiing after it's groomed, it's just not packed powder in my book. Don't forget that groomers don't just pack down snow, they also churn it up and push it around as needed.

 

[Warp Daddy]

Hey i'll take it anyway i can get it right now beggars can't be choosers

 

[ta&idaho]

Describing a groomed run as "packed powder" is as disingenuous as applying the term to a snowman or an igloo.

 

[ta&idaho]

Not to mention a half pipe or a field of moguls.

 

[billski]

I agree with Steve. To me the term 'packed powder' means relatively fresh powder packed down by skier traffic. Once the groomer passes over it becomes something else. Not to say that it can't be good skiing after it's groomed, it's just not packed powder in my book. Don't forget that groomers don't just pack down snow, they also churn it up and push it around as needed.

+1. The best packed powder is skiing during a snowstorm with about an inch an hour coming down, plenty of skiers to track it out. However, if the storm persists, it quickly "degenerates" to powder skiing. That's what I love about Black Mt. NH. They are simply in no hurry to groom it!

Before the advent of top to bottom snow-making and grooming equipment, the best packed powder was new-fallen snow that had been tracked out with temps staying considerably below the freezing mark (read: dry). A day at Saddleback in the 1980s reminds me of that... It stayed PP in Buffalo because it just incessantly snowed and the groomers could not keep up with it! Another "good problem" to have!

 

[hammer]

Hey i'll take it anyway i can get it right now beggars can't be choosers

+1

Based on my limited experience, here are my ski condition term translations:

Frozen Granular = Hardpack/Ice
Loose Granular = Groomed Ice
Packed Powder = Machine Groomed
Powder = Packed Powder (unless you get there early enough)

 

[billski]

+1

Based on my limited experience, here are my ski condition term translations:

Frozen Granular = Hardpack/Ice
Loose Granular = Groomed Ice
Packed Powder = Machine Groomed
Powder = Packed Powder (unless you get there early enough)

I think others in the group, my self included see there being a fifth category in there:
REAL Packed Powder - Skier-packed
Steve makes a really good point that grooming equipment churns up the underlayments of earlier snow, making for a less than fresh view.
This fifth category is really difficult to find any more.

 

[snafu]

what about riders? I would say they are better powder packers than skiers...

 

[dmc]

Packed powder is skied and groomed fresh that hasn't had a chance to do any freeze thaw....

 

[dmc]

what about riders? I would say they are better powder packers than skiers...

For real... Often times skiers will wait for us riders to pack stuff down before they use it..

 

[Greg]

Packed powder is skied and groomed fresh that hasn't had a chance to do any freeze thaw....

That's my definition as well. As long as the groomed snow is smooth and buttery with little noise as you edge, it's packed powder in my book.

Powder packed by skier traffic or wind? Tracked out powder, crud, or powder bumps/moguls.