Ski town real estate

[snoseek]

i have friends that have bought houses and are underwater. for the first time ever im glad i rent.

I hear you. I'll take it a step further and say I seek out cool roomates and split it. In the winter I live a mile from the tram and its cheap.This winter I paid a whopping 450 Next winter my rent will be 300 a month including all my utilities due to the fact that I'm supposedly a desirable roomate. Who says ski towns need to be so expensive?

 

[Glenn]

We bught our place just about 3 years ago in March of 09. The market had taken a pretty good hit at that time, so prices were down. We ended up getting something 20-30 minutes away from the mountain. The price was more reasonable and the location was a bit better for us. We use the house year round, so being close to other things was important as well.

I think the the drive up is a good thing to consider. On average, our drive takes about 2 hours +/-. It's old habbit by now. But certainly something to keep in mind. I'd imagine things would be different if it was say, 4 hours each way.

We opted to go with a house. I know this sounds nuts, but my wife and I like doing yardwark and home improvement projects. Our definition of "relaxing" is probably a lot different from most people's. :lol:

Taxes in VT can be high and vary from town to town. And there is that 7 year provision. But I think for the most part, people who are looking to buy usually plan on holding for awhile.

 

[SkiFanE]

I would never buy a vacation home, as it's typically one of the most destructive things you can do with your money (unless you're so wealthy you just dont care).

But beyond that fact, I think right now is a terrible time to buy a house to begin with.*


*Yes, I'm more than aware that all the "experts" say exactly the opposite

Sure..if you do it wrong. We've had the opposite experience. Will turn out to be a good choice if we end up retiring there. In the 8 years since we've bought our property taxes have gone up $200, to $1600/year. We're not wealthy or destructive, just made the choice to spend our disposable income on skiing

 

[WWF-VT]

Would you you buy now, wait, or no way would I ever dump serious $$$ in a recreational activity?

Looking at skiing somewhere in VT the next 5-6 years and possibly longer. What is your opinion about buying a modest 1-2 bdrm condo at or near a major VT resort over the next few months.

Have you already done a seasonal rental at the VT resort where you are considering buying a condo ? That is a good test to know if you are ready to commit to the mountain, the drive and the logistics of becoming a second home owner. We rented for 5 seasons before buying and had looked at a variety of on mountain and off mountain condos. We waited and when a unit was available at top choice we purchased. Not sure where you are looking but at this time you have low interest rates and the potential for a "motivated" seller that could equal a good time to buy if you are ready to make the financial and .family commitment,

 

[Highway Star]

I bought in 1993 after real estate collapsed in 1989/1990. 20 years later, my place didn't even track inflation. My cost of ownership is about 4x what it was when I bought it. I'm at the point where I need to sink some money into the place remodeling but I'm hemorrhaging cash into my flatland place remodeling there and I don't have the cash flow to do both at the same time.

If I had to do it over again, I'd go with seasonal rentals. It gives you the flexibility to walk away at the end of the year. It gives you the flexibility to skip a year if something funky happens to your finances.

Killington real estate = fail!

It's important to note that each ski area has it's own micro market. If a resort is expanding, updating, getting more visits, etc, your price will increase. Since Geoff bought his condo, Killington/Pico has lost nearly half it's yearly skier visits. There is a huge amount of property on the market in the area, and even more "siiting on the sidelines". Stuff on the outskirts has really dropped off. Slopeside stuff is still at a premium, but stuff that's 5 minutes away is much cheaper.

 

[Masskier]

The law is 6 years, not 7. It was designed as an anti-subdivision law. What ended up happening is that developers built condos instead since those don't fall under that law as new construction. For some strange reason, condo resales do fall under the law.

The penalty declines each year so in the 5th year, it's only 5%. The tax is only on the land, not the buildings on the land. Unless you have a bunch of acres, most of the value will be in the buildings so this is rarely much of a tax.

The bigger deal is that you have to pay Vermont income tax on your gains as regular income. For a vacation home owner, you get screwed. They have a graduated income tax but you have to count all your other income sources first to set the tax rate for your gain. If you make $200K in income and have a $50K gain on your real estate sale, you pay the top brackets. Most people who can afford a vacation home will pay 8.80% or 8.95% Vermont income tax on the gain.

The Act 68 state school property tax makes for pretty stiff property taxes. The non-resident rate is 1.38%. Municipal taxes push that well above 2%.

Agreed,
As you stated the "Vt Land Gains Tax" is 6 years not 7. And it is phased out over that time period. And because it is only based on the portion of gain attributed to the land, it is not a big concern on Condo resales in VT. On all condos in VT, the state attributes 10% of the property to be land. So therefore if you own less than 6 years when you resell and have a $100,000 gain, only $10,000 of that gain will be taxed under the Land Gain tax.

 

[Razor]

From what I've seen over the years, buying resort real estate is a dubious investment. When you look at all the ancillary costs, like mortgage interest, property taxes, utility bills, repairs, etc., etc., etc., plus commitment to one place, it's not worth the money. Rent a place and just go and enjoy it, and let someone else worry about all the other crap.

When I retired, we bought a quartershare at the Summit at Sunday River. For us it's been a good deal, but we can go midweek and use the space available feature all the time. Plus we can and have traded some weeks to go to places like Vail, Florida, etc. Such studio units can be had for under $10,000 today for 13 weeks/year. But they are not investments that will make you any money most years. What I like is we can just go and not worry about anything else. But they're not for everyone.

 

[JimmyPete]

Depends

Would you you buy now, wait, or no way would I ever dump serious $$$ in a recreational activity?

Looking at skiing somewhere in VT the next 5-6 years and possibly longer. What is your opinion about buying a modest 1-2 bdrm condo at or near a major VT resort over the next few months.

So many factors, What's your family situation. If you have kids there will be a time when they have obligations at home sports, social , school. How far is the drive. I had a place at Hunter and sold at a slight loss , never regretted it as it gave me 15 years of great times. The drive got to be too much and the kids were growing ever more reluctant. Now that I have grandkids and my children are grown, we've again bought, close to Hunter. I can easily cut work get there in 90minutes. If a kid has a game or party on Saturday they can go to it and still end up at the house on Saturday evening for a day on Sunday. A season pass also frees you up. Out at 8:45 gets crowded or icy around 11 go back to the condo, maybe even go out again around 3pm, but no worries about blowing 90 bucks and only getting a few hours in. One thing , it is not an investment, you make money after selling simply a bonus.

 

[jlboyell]

i have a question. slope side is really nice, did it at smuggs a while back and up at sugarloaf last year. both times for three days. it was great, no car get ready walk outside ski/ride. the question is dont you get tired being stuck to one mountain? then when whatever happens, your mad at killington or whoever, your stuck. wouldnt it be better to find a place, maybe not slope side, but in the center of a few places? the demand and return on investment might not be as good, but then isnt variety worth something? i picked where im at partly because there is 3 world class resorts within an hour. tying myself down to a mountain seems ridiculous, then you are relying on them, and ive learned its really tough to rely on anyone. i am having trouble deciding where to buy my pass for next year, and consider that a good problem

 

[Paul_M]

i have a question. slope side is really nice, did it at smuggs a while back and up at sugarloaf last year. both times for three days. it was great, no car get ready walk outside ski/ride. the question is dont you get tired being stuck to one mountain? then when whatever happens, your mad at killington or whoever, your stuck. wouldnt it be better to find a place, maybe not slope side, but in the center of a few places? the demand and return on investment might not be as good, but then isnt variety worth something? i picked where im at partly because there is 3 world class resorts within an hour. tying myself down to a mountain seems ridiculous, then you are relying on them, and ive learned its really tough to rely on anyone. i am having trouble deciding where to buy my pass for next year, and consider that a good problem

We're looking at the bigger (and expanding) mtns to provide the variety. Skiing at several places is not high on our priority list, ymmv and having a place and a pass at one mtn doesn't preclude an occasional day somewhere else.

 

[Harvey]

We did something that avoids some of the issues raised but would probably work for very few. Over the course of several years we used tax refunds to buy five acres, excavate a driveway and then build our ski cabin. It's tiny and lacks what many would consider necessities. It's not slopeside or more accurately not adjacent to lifts - it's about 10 minutes from Gore and five minutes from 100,000 acres of wilderness.

The big advantage for us is that, we owe nothing on it. If it was a "real home" and I'd had a mortgage on it, we'd have been forced to sell at a loss in the last few years when our income dropped dramatically in the recession.

In 2007 I calculated TOTAL cost of skiing, to include lift tickets, plowing, taxes etc and it came out to $6000 for 30 days of skiing. That's $200 a day to ski, so it's pretty cost effective.

Yeah we are tied to Gore for lift-served skiing, but it's in a great spot - hiking, wilderness, alpine and nordic skiing, rafting etc. It works for us.

Re slopeside... I'm 53 and when our daughter is older, we're going back to our nordic roots and enjoying a lower key lifestyle. Slopeside is REALLY convenient when you are lugging all that kid gear around, but in the long run, my plan is to spend more time in the woods. A commitment to slopeside is not my thing.

 

[Geoff]

Killington real estate = fail!

It's important to note that each ski area has it's own micro market. If a resort is expanding, updating, getting more visits, etc, your price will increase. Since Geoff bought his condo, Killington/Pico has lost nearly half it's yearly skier visits. There is a huge amount of property on the market in the area, and even more "siiting on the sidelines". Stuff on the outskirts has really dropped off. Slopeside stuff is still at a premium, but stuff that's 5 minutes away is much cheaper.

Highway Star.... ever the diplomat. Rub some more salt into my wounds, pleeeze

I figure POWDR has lowered my property values by $50K. The condo market at Killington is driven by potential rental income. Midweek rentals simply don't exist. Shoulder season rentals vaporized. A unit sitting in the rental pool can't cover property taxes, condo fees, insurance, and utilities let alone wear & tear and any kind of return on the cost of capital. A decade ago, you could reasonably expect to get 75 rental nights in a season with half of those commanding the weekend/holiday rate. I've never rented my place but my resale is entirely tied to how much income it can generate.

I guess it comes as no surprise that I have little love for Chris Nyberg and POWDR. They have cost me a lot of money.

 

[Paul_M]

We did something that avoids some of the issues raised but would probably work for very few. Over the course of several years we used tax refunds to buy five acres, excavate a driveway and then build our ski cabin. It's tiny and lacks what many would consider necessities. It's not slopeside or more accurately not adjacent to lifts - it's about 10 minutes from Gore and five minutes from 100,000 acres of wilderness.

The big advantage for us is that, we owe nothing on it. If it was a "real home" and I'd had a mortgage on it, we'd have been forced to sell at a loss in the last few years when our income dropped dramatically in the recession.

In 2007 I calculated TOTAL cost of skiing, to include lift tickets, plowing, taxes etc and it came out to $6000 for 30 days of skiing. That's $200 a day to ski, so it's pretty cost effective.

Yeah we are tied to Gore for lift-served skiing, but it's in a great spot - hiking, wilderness, alpine and nordic skiing, rafting etc. It works for us.

Re slopeside... I'm 53 and when our daughter is older, we're going back to our nordic roots and enjoying a lower key lifestyle. Slopeside is REALLY convenient when you are lugging all that kid gear around, but in the long run, my plan is to spend more time in the woods. A commitment to slopeside is not my thing.

Well done!

 

[AdironRider]

Yeah none of that was the recession and its all Powdr's fault.

 

[Glenn]

We did something that avoids some of the issues raised but would probably work for very few. Over the course of several years we used tax refunds to buy five acres, excavate a driveway and then build our ski cabin. It's tiny and lacks what many would consider necessities. It's not slopeside or more accurately not adjacent to lifts - it's about 10 minutes from Gore and five minutes from 100,000 acres of wilderness.

The big advantage for us is that, we owe nothing on it. If it was a "real home" and I'd had a mortgage on it, we'd have been forced to sell at a loss in the last few years when our income dropped dramatically in the recession.

In 2007 I calculated TOTAL cost of skiing, to include lift tickets, plowing, taxes etc and it came out to $6000 for 30 days of skiing. That's $200 a day to ski, so it's pretty cost effective.

Yeah we are tied to Gore for lift-served skiing, but it's in a great spot - hiking, wilderness, alpine and nordic skiing, rafting etc. It works for us.

Re slopeside... I'm 53 and when our daughter is older, we're going back to our nordic roots and enjoying a lower key lifestyle. Slopeside is REALLY convenient when you are lugging all that kid gear around, but in the long run, my plan is to spend more time in the woods. A commitment to slopeside is not my thing.

Awesome ski house! Love how you guys built it.

 

[RENO]

We did something that avoids some of the issues raised but would probably work for very few. Over the course of several years we used tax refunds to buy five acres, excavate a driveway and then build our ski cabin. It's tiny and lacks what many would consider necessities. It's not slopeside or more accurately not adjacent to lifts - it's about 10 minutes from Gore and five minutes from 100,000 acres of wilderness.

The big advantage for us is that, we owe nothing on it. If it was a "real home" and I'd had a mortgage on it, we'd have been forced to sell at a loss in the last few years when our income dropped dramatically in the recession.

In 2007 I calculated TOTAL cost of skiing, to include lift tickets, plowing, taxes etc and it came out to $6000 for 30 days of skiing. That's $200 a day to ski, so it's pretty cost effective.

Yeah we are tied to Gore for lift-served skiing, but it's in a great spot - hiking, wilderness, alpine and nordic skiing, rafting etc. It works for us.

Re slopeside... I'm 53 and when our daughter is older, we're going back to our nordic roots and enjoying a lower key lifestyle. Slopeside is REALLY convenient when you are lugging all that kid gear around, but in the long run, my plan is to spend more time in the woods. A commitment to slopeside is not my thing.

Awesome!

 

[goldsbar]

I've been thinking about this for years and agree with many of the problems mentioned in this thread. From my house, VT is about 4 hours - that's not the good stuff like Sugarbush, more like Mt. Snow and K maybe a bit longer. I shared a house at Mt. Snow when I was younger (hey, I was young) and the 4 hour drive got to be tedious after a few times. I can't imagine now with kids. We both work and it's not like we can get out at 3:00 every friday to make things easier. Others do it no problems so I suppose it's an individual thing.

Don't count on real estate to make money. That was always a fools bet even when people thought prices never went down. Don't get me wrong - many have gotten rich on real estate, especially development but don't base your plans on it. Most of these areas have nothing to offer but the skiing. Not exactly the economic powerhouse areas around NYC and Boston. If the mountain goes downhill, so does your house.

Finally, hotels don't really cost that much money when you think of all the maintenance and taxes you have to pour into a house. Plus, I wouldn't want the fact that I have a house discourage me from going West once/season.

 

[Paul_M]

I've been thinking about this for years and agree with many of the problems mentioned in this thread. From my house, VT is about 4 hours - that's not the good stuff like Sugarbush, more like Mt. Snow and K maybe a bit longer. I shared a house at Mt. Snow when I was younger (hey, I was young) and the 4 hour drive got to be tedious after a few times. I can't imagine now with kids. We both work and it's not like we can get out at 3:00 every friday to make things easier. Others do it no problems so I suppose it's an individual thing.

Don't count on real estate to make money. That was always a fools bet even when people thought prices never went down. Don't get me wrong - many have gotten rich on real estate, especially development but don't base your plans on it. Most of these areas have nothing to offer but the skiing. Not exactly the economic powerhouse areas around NYC and Boston. If the mountain goes downhill, so does your house.

Finally, hotels don't really cost that much money when you think of all the maintenance and taxes you have to pour into a house. Plus, I wouldn't want the fact that I have a house discourage me from going West once/season.

Not a matter of making money or saving money.....it's a matter of comfort. Staying in a run of mill motel w screaming kids, uncomfortable beds, and questionable restaurant food gets old quick.

 

[skijay]

I prefer to be a 30 - 40 minute drive to Mount Snow. I looked in and around the area but the dollar buys you more if you don't mind the drive or being in a different state.

 

[Tooth]

We did something that avoids some of the issues raised but would probably work for very few. Over the course of several years we used tax refunds to buy five acres, excavate a driveway and then build our ski cabin. It's tiny and lacks what many would consider necessities. It's not slopeside or more accurately not adjacent to lifts - it's about 10 minutes from Gore and five minutes from 100,000 acres of wilderness.

The big advantage for us is that, we owe nothing on it. If it was a "real home" and I'd had a mortgage on it, we'd have been forced to sell at a loss in the last few years when our income dropped dramatically in the recession.

In 2007 I calculated TOTAL cost of skiing, to include lift tickets, plowing, taxes etc and it came out to $6000 for 30 days of skiing. That's $200 a day to ski, so it's pretty cost effective.

Yeah we are tied to Gore for lift-served skiing, but it's in a great spot - hiking, wilderness, alpine and nordic skiing, rafting etc. It works for us.

Re slopeside... I'm 53 and when our daughter is older, we're going back to our nordic roots and enjoying a lower key lifestyle. Slopeside is REALLY convenient when you are lugging all that kid gear around, but in the long run, my plan is to spend more time in the woods. A commitment to slopeside is not my thing.

Thats really nice. I love it.