VW's entire line to go hybrid.

[BeanoNYC]

Story Here.

 

[wa-loaf]

That's interesting because it always seemed like they were more interested in pushing advanced diesel tech. And now that we have the cleaner diesel (that europe has had for years) it sounded like they were going to be bringing in a lot more particulate free diesel engines.

I've always been suprised that there aren't any diesel hybids. That seems like the best of both worlds.

 

[koreshot]

I am starting to get fed up with the whole hybrid crap. I mean its better than doing nothing I suppose but at the same time I find it pretty annoying that manufacturers seem to be getting into the hybrid fad so much - diluting the original point of the hybrid drive. Its almost a copout that makes it ok that the rest of their lineup is full of tanks. And yes, toyota with their 9 varieties of SUVs is just as guilty of this. Woopie, we have a Prius - now we can make 5 more SUV models that weigh 10 tons and sell way more of those than we ever will the Prius!

There are other, potentially better ways to make a fuel efficient car - diesel as already suggested, lighter cars, smaller engines, better technology. Furthermore, most hybrids seem to make substantial sacrifices in fuel economy for more performance. For example the now discontinued honda accord hybrid. It was the fastest accord honda offered when it first hit the showrooms - I just don't get why the hybrid needs to obliterate the 1/8th mile from one traffic light to the next in under 6.5 seconds. Kind of a paradox.

Did you guys hear the Chevy Tahoe Hybrid gets 21 city and 22 highway? That is a huge improvement over comparable non-Hybrid model that gets 14 city and 20 highway! Like a whole 15% overall improvement in gas mileage for only 8 thousand dollars extra. Plus you get reliability that will be even worse than what we are used to from GM. Sign me up!!!

How did the bar get so low...

 

[riverc0il]

Dude, koreshot, I hear you man, and I completely agree with you that large sized V6 sedans, SUVs, and trucks are missing the point with the hybrid. But hey, I guess if people really want to buy those types of vehicles, better that they buy hybrid than not, right? Sad thing is, after maintenance costs, most hybrids do not save drivers money in the long term. But dude... VW! These guys already have some decent mileage ratings. So two thumbs up. I hear you with the general gripe though, especially when the MPG jump is only slight compared to non-hybrid or this half hybrid stuff. Sad thing is.... HONDA CRX BABY! 20 years ago was already making 50 MPG. The bar is set low.... considering.

 

[sledhaulingmedic]

I thought VW had announced a Diesel/electric hybrid several years back. I wonder what happened?

VW makes quite a few Diesel powered cars, they just don't sell many here. I think right now, at least in MA, you can only get a Jetta/TDI and the Toureg.

More so than the Hybrid, GM seems to be even bigger on the E85 "Flex-fuel" bandwagon. Wonderful. Once you find the fuel, it seems ok. Until you find out what you get for mileage on E85. I guess as a plus, you won't have your fuel lines freeze with E85. (Not that I've had that happen in a long time.)

 

[Marc]

I'm just wondering, with all the hysteria and green drum beats about hybrids, if anyone has stopped to consider the energy costs and environmental impact of manufacturing of and eventually disposing of thousands of very large lithium ion batteries? As has been mentioned, small diesel technology is proven and very efficient, and has the potential to run biodiesel with no major engine or fuel storage or delivery changes to the vehicle.

I think it all really comes down to the stigma associated with diesels that people can't get around, that they're loud, smokey and underpowered, and it just isn't true of today's passenger car oriented diesels.

 

[hammer]

I'm just wondering, with all the hysteria and green drum beats about hybrids, if anyone has stopped to consider the energy costs and environmental impact of manufacturing of and eventually disposing of thousands of very large lithium ion batteries? As has been mentioned, small diesel technology is proven and very efficient, and has the potential to run biodiesel with no major engine or fuel storage or delivery changes to the vehicle.

I think it all really comes down to the stigma associated with diesels that people can't get around, that they're loud, smokey and underpowered, and it just isn't true of today's passenger car oriented diesels.

When I was going to Germany on business, I would get a diesel as a rental about 1/3 of the time.

The cars I ended up renting were a bit noisier, and there was a stronger smell from the exhaust, but otherwise I didn't find anything wrong with them. I had no problem keeping up on the Autobahn with all of the other cars.

I'd definitely look into a diesel as my next car once I can start buying them in Mass...

 

[sledhaulingmedic]

I'm just wondering, with all the hysteria and green drum beats about hybrids, if anyone has stopped to consider the energy costs and environmental impact of manufacturing of and eventually disposing of thousands of very large lithium ion batteries? As has been mentioned, small diesel technology is proven and very efficient, and has the potential to run biodiesel with no major engine or fuel storage or delivery changes to the vehicle.

I think it all really comes down to the stigma associated with diesels that people can't get around, that they're loud, smokey and underpowered, and it just isn't true of today's passenger car oriented diesels.

Hybrids have several disadvantages. The environmental impact of the batteries, the additional maintainance/service headaches. (I still have yet to deal with a significant crash with one of these. Given the conservative way that most Hybrids are driven, I'm figuring it will by a road rage incident where some angry yuppy in his Hummer tries to drive over the hybrid.)

The new diesel technology is much cleaner and delivers very good performance. I find mine actually runs better on a blend of up to 20% biodiesel than it does on straight "Dino" diesel. I can't run it richer until I replace the fuel lines and possibly the fuel pump, which I might eventually do.

I think you're right about the stigma of diesels. With Full electronic authority direct injection, you can have a clean engine that gives great performance and mileage. (Heck, I had a Diesel Rabbit for a company car back in the early '80's and it got over 50MPG on the highway.) Given that I get about 20 MPG out of a Full sized PU and up to 400HP, I'm sure they could easily make a sedan that drives nicely and gives you 50MPG on the highway.

 

[bvibert]

This is a bit surprising to me. The Germans have always seemed to poo poo on hybrid technology, instead investing on diesel technology. I wish that VW would import more of their TDI offerings stateside instead. That's what I'd be driving right now if I could find one that I liked in my price range...

 

[ctenidae]

VW (and other manufacturers) would import more diesels if they could. EPA regs won't allow most diesel engines without significant performance robbing and price increasing air cleaners. If biodiesel were more available, it probably wouldn't be a problem.

In the end, though, reducing emmissions from consumer vehicles has a very small impact on overall greenhouse gas emmissions, so buying a hybrid is reall more about feeling good than doing good. According to a McKinsey report (http://e.mckinseyquarterly.com/W8RT015CEA689C83F4B27368225310), better insulation for buildings has a much, much greater (and cheaper) effect, and more efficient commercial fleets far outweighs consumer cars.

 

[hammer]

I remember driving near a truck running biodiesel a few months ago...mmm, that french fry smell...

 

[wa-loaf]

I wish that VW would import more of their TDI offerings stateside instead. That's what I'd be driving right now if I could find one that I liked in my price range...

The problem has been lately with all the states that follow California emissions standards (All if NE except NH) you can't buy a new VW diesel because of the particulates. I believe in MA you can buy a used one with at least 7k miles, which creates a wierd secondary market where it's really expensive to buy a used diesel. Try to do a search for a diesel VW in MA on one of the used car websites! With the cleaner Diesel that just came out and the newer diesel engines VW and Mercedes are producing we should be seeing more diesel options in the coming years.

Like Hammer we've driven a diesel rental in Germany, VW Golf wagon with a 6 speed, and it rocked. There was no lack of pick-up and we easily cruised at 120(200kph) on the Autobahn. I'd love to see those make it over here.

 

[tjf67]

I thought VW had announced a Diesel/electric hybrid several years back. I wonder what happened?

VW makes quite a few Diesel powered cars, they just don't sell many here. I think right now, at least in MA, you can only get a Jetta/TDI and the Toureg.

More so than the Hybrid, GM seems to be even bigger on the E85 "Flex-fuel" bandwagon. Wonderful. Once you find the fuel, it seems ok. Until you find out what you get for mileage on E85. I guess as a plus, you won't have your fuel lines freeze with E85. (Not that I've had that happen in a long time.)

GM uses the flex fuel to get them away from having to pay penalties for the size and ratings of there vehicles. They dont expect people to use it.

 

[sledhaulingmedic]

I remember driving near a truck running biodiesel a few months ago...mmm, that french fry smell...

With Bio, the odor is minimal, albeit noticable. SVO is another matter. That smells like a fryolator!

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

My Mom drives a Prius..it's ugly as all hell, was like 24 grand for a car that should be 20 grand or less..and has an annoying lag when accelerating....I wonder if the new VW hybrids will be more expensive than the regular gas equivelents..getting 40mpg is great but not if the cars an extra 4-5 grand..

 

[Marc]

VW (and other manufacturers) would import more diesels if they could. EPA regs won't allow most diesel engines without significant performance robbing and price increasing air cleaners. If biodiesel were more available, it probably wouldn't be a problem.

In the end, though, reducing emmissions from consumer vehicles has a very small impact on overall greenhouse gas emmissions, so buying a hybrid is reall more about feeling good than doing good. According to a McKinsey report (http://e.mckinseyquarterly.com/W8RT015CEA689C83F4B27368225310), better insulation for buildings has a much, much greater (and cheaper) effect, and more efficient commercial fleets far outweighs consumer cars.

Well, I don't know what is different, but Mercedes is offering a lot of diesels right now, and a few with very good performance. The latest iteration on their diesel design is called "Bluetec" if you happen to see that badge on the back of one. If Benz can do it, I'm damn sure VAG can do it, I think VW is going the hybrid route to continue their path down what's trendy and profitable rather than what's best. I mean, I can't blame them for obeying the market's demands on what is trendy and profitable, being that they are a business and their priority is making money.

I guess I'm more annoyed with the non technical public who have be swooned by the marketeers hell bent on pushing gas electric hybrid, which was never the best intermediary solution, IMHO.

 

[Marc]

Hybrids have several disadvantages. The environmental impact of the batteries, the additional maintainance/service headaches. (I still have yet to deal with a significant crash with one of these. Given the conservative way that most Hybrids are driven, I'm figuring it will by a road rage incident where some angry yuppy in his Hummer tries to drive over the hybrid.)

The new diesel technology is much cleaner and delivers very good performance. I find mine actually runs better on a blend of up to 20% biodiesel than it does on straight "Dino" diesel. I can't run it richer until I replace the fuel lines and possibly the fuel pump, which I might eventually do.

I think you're right about the stigma of diesels. With Full electronic authority direct injection, you can have a clean engine that gives great performance and mileage. (Heck, I had a Diesel Rabbit for a company car back in the early '80's and it got over 50MPG on the highway.) Given that I get about 20 MPG out of a Full sized PU and up to 400HP, I'm sure they could easily make a sedan that drives nicely and gives you 50MPG on the highway.

Good poitns all around. I have yet to participate in an MVA call involving a hybrid, but I have read a couple incident reports. One of which included a 50 foot length of guard rail energized with enough current for a short time to kill or seriously injur anyone in contact with it. And that means there was probably enough to arc across nicely to a haligan or K12 without actually touching it. Scary.

 

[sledhaulingmedic]

Good poitns all around. I have yet to participate in an MVA call involving a hybrid, but I have read a couple incident reports. One of which included a 50 foot length of guard rail energized with enough current for a short time to kill or seriously injur anyone in contact with it. And that means there was probably enough to arc across nicely to a haligan or K12 without actually touching it. Scary.

Don't cut the orange wire!

 

[wa-loaf]

Well, I don't know what is different, but Mercedes is offering a lot of diesels right now, and a few with very good performance. The latest iteration on their diesel design is called "Bluetec" if you happen to see that badge on the back of one. If Benz can do it, I'm damn sure VAG can do it

Bluetec is what the new VW's are going to have when they get here. They've actually stopped producing the TDI's this year and will be reintroduced next year with Bluetec as far as I know. Not sure why they needed to skip a year.

 

[MRGisevil]

Bluetec is what the new VW's are going to have when they get here. They've actually stopped producing the TDI's this year and will be reintroduced next year with Bluetec as far as I know. Not sure why they needed to skip a year.

If Bluetec is the only option this year it'll produce a higher market saturation and better familiarity- smart move imo.