Who wants to move to Salt Lake?

[raisingarizona]

Something like 80% of water use in the West is for agriculture. Obviously golf courses, lawns and other frivolous things consume water out there (all of which unnecessarily) but our unsustainable practices in farming the desert (alfalfa, almonds, avocados, ect.) need to be re-evaluated. Along with the explosive population growth in places that never supported more than nomadic groups.

Showers are massive, along with keeping a freshly washed car which all those city folk love down in the valley. Back yard pools must be massive for consumption I'd bet. Keeping them full in such an arid environment can't be easy.

 

[Hawk]

Maybe the Chinese f-ed up on the potency of the virus. Maybe it was susposed to be like Thanos and wipe out 1/2 the population and fix the world. I know bad joke but with 1/2 the population gone we would be good for a generation or two. People want a solution. I give you Thanos.

Steve

 

[ss20]

Maybe the Chinese f-ed up on the potency of the virus. Maybe it was susposed to be like Thanos and wipe out 1/2 the population and fix the world. I know bad joke but with 1/2 the population gone we would be good for a generation or two. People want a solution. I give you Thanos.

Steve

You'll get your wish. The pandemic is speeding up the declining birth rate trend in the USA and most of the developed world. Our fertility rate is well below replacement levels and any population growth is going to come from immigration. It would take a huge jump to reverse this trend. I think US population to peak at about 350m by 2050. It's almost scary- in the 90s and before the 2008 recession child-bearing women were pumping out average of 2.0-2.2 kids each. Now, in just 15 years, it's down to 1.6-1.7. That's a massive drop that is way below levels ever seen in this country. I believe it only gets worse as less and less people choose to marry, let alone procreate.

I don't think you hear anything about this because once a country's population starts to stagnate or decline it absolutely wrecks the economy and no nation has figured out a fix. I'll be long gone but anyone around near the next turn of the century is probably going to be in a world of hurt.

 

[jimmywilson69]

yeah there are lots of people I know who have married, but decided against kids. that was sort of unheard of when I was growing up.

 

[KustyTheKlown]

yeah there are lots of people I know who have married, but decided against kids. that was sort of unheard of when I was growing up.

double income no kids, reporting for duty.

the concept of having children is utterly unappealing to me. the concept is actually nauseating. while this primarily comes down to selfishness, its not transitory youthful selfishness i will grow out of. at 37 with a partner north of 40, we are confident and permanent in this decision.

having kids strike me as wildly expensive, completely un-fun, and something that would create far more stress and anxiety than joy. i also wouldn't want to bring a child into this fucked up world that is beyond fucked and getting worse every day.

more power to you all, and to my friends who have decided to have children, but i just don't see the appeal whatsoever.

i'd have 5 year old twins if not for abortion. big fan of abortion and abortion rights. I'm told one of the twins would have likely ate the other as they developed in utero. creepy.

I'm down with being an uncle. but i also think my sister and BIL are insane for producing multiple offspring.

i love my cat with the heat of one thousand suns.

 

[deadheadskier]

Then you made the right decision for you.

For me, all of the hard work and stress surrounding raising kids is 200% worth it. There are certainly times my wife and I miss our solo days when we could do whatever we want, whenever we wanted. Good health willing, those times will return someday. I can't believe how fast the past 7 years blew by since having our first. They'll be in college or working before we know it.

Fucked up world part? Meh. Folks probably had the same reservations about parenthood 50 years ago. It was even more fucked up then if we are being honest. It's just more socially acceptable to not have children today.

I wouldn't trade being a dad for anything in the world. Love it

 

[jimk]

Must tread lightly and with respect, this thread is drifting to hot topics. I'm kind of the opposite of Kusty and more like Deadhead. BUT one thing I enjoy about ski forums is the opportunity to engage with civility with people I wouldn't otherwise because we have a common unifying love of snow riding.

I have four adult kids, I'm catholic & pro-life, old, and married 40+ years. Have a hard time understanding how a fertile couple would rather opt for the time and effort to maintain one or more pets, when they could devote that effort to the much more rewarding vocation of raising a child.

I consider my skiing, my online ski posting/articles/reports/photos to be the goof-off part of my life. It's my fun, but shallow side. I consider my faith, long marriage, civil service career, and raising four reasonably successful and well-adjusted adult children on a single income to be my truly meaningful accomplishments in life.

PS: about unifying forces - I also am quite patriotic. I don't like the trend of kneeling for the national anthem at sports events. I think our patriotism and respect for our democracy is one of America's most important and distinguishing qualities. If we don't have a few sacrosanct commonalities like the anthem, then why do we stay together as a country???

 

[1dog]

Showers are massive, along with keeping a freshly washed car which all those city folk love down in the valley. Back yard pools must be massive for consumption I'd bet. Keeping them full in such an arid environment can't be easy.

Well CA is losing pop faster than any other state. This piece has some interesting facts on water and use of land in CA:

The Lords of Scarcity › American Greatness

One of the farmers who supported our attempt to qualify the Water Infrastructure Funding Act for the November 2022 ballot was John Duarte. It was a privilege to speak with Duarte…

amgreatness.com

Here's a quick one for those with no time to peruse:

California is only five percent urbanized. Five percent. The significance of this bears further explanation. The state of California sprawls across 163,000 square miles, there are 25,000 square miles of grazing land and 42,000 square miles of agricultural land. Of that, 14,000 square miles are prime agricultural land. You could put 10 million new residents into homes, four per household, on quarter-acre lots, with an equal amount of land set aside for roads, parks, and commercial districts, and you would only consume 1,953 square miles. If you built those new cities on the best prime agricultural land California’s got, you would only use up 14 percent of it. If you scattered those homes among all of California’s farmland and grazing land—which is far more likely—you would only use up 3 percent of it.


BTW, weren't the salt flats once a Great Lake? Dry n the NE this Spring too. . . . .

 

[KustyTheKlown]

aside from being your cultural opposite - jewish athiest pro choice urban liberal - its also an age/generational thing, in that my generation was/is a bit economically fucked, and yours had the opportunity to realistically own a home and raise a family on a single income. that being said, economics is one of many reasons i dont have/want kids. economics doesnt prevent me from having kids. its just another reason not to.

 

[ss20]

I consider my faith, long marriage, civil service career, and raising four reasonably successful and well-adjusted adult children on a single income to be my truly meaningful accomplishments in life.

This is exactly where you see the generational differences showing... majority of people under age 40 have no interest in ANY of those things, let alone one. The world view between yourself and a 30yo today would be 100% different. Going to stereotype here but young people want to travel wherever, get in bed with whoever, and couldn't care squat about building a strong future career. And minimal church and family ties.

I am 100% with you though, for the record.

 

[KustyTheKlown]

This is exactly where you see the generational differences showing... majority of people under age 40 have no interest in ANY of those things, let alone one. The world view between yourself and a 30yo today would be 100% different. Going to stereotype here but young people want to travel wherever, get in bed with whoever, and couldn't care squat about building a strong future career. And minimal church and family ties.

I am 100% with you though, for the record.

i think you are on the right track but are overstating it pretty drastically re: 'get in bed with whoever' and 'couldn't care about building a strong future career'. my situation is a monogamous partnership where both of us are free to pursue our careers and interests to the max because we aren't shackled by child-rearing. we love our families deeply and see them all the time, even my girlfriends family in tennessee. we don't subscribe to religion because religion is silly nonsense, but that doesnt mean we dont value community and morals. many 30-40 somethings would see things the same. we do like to travel where/whenever, why shouldnt we.

 

[drjeff]

Kind of add my 2 cents from the perspective of a dual professional income, dual kids family where the oldest just graduated Highschool last weekend and is off to College in 2 months, and the youngest finished his junior year of Highschool today and will be off to college in roughly 14 months. So after now 25yrs of marriage (as of 2 weeks ago) and 18.5yrs of parenthood, the empty nest phase is rapidly approaching now.

Wouldn't give up the parenting experience and what it's been for anything. Sure it's crazy, tough, frustrating, etc, etc, etc often, but the feeling you get when you see your kids learning, loving, achieving things they weren't sure they could do, and even enjoying some of the same things you love to do as well, you rapidly forget about all of the frustrating times. And while I don't get the families that have 4,5,6,10+ kids, having 2, and fortunately enough a girl and a boy (talk about different parenting experiences and not just because of what it's like cleaning up a dirty diaper! ) and roughly 2 yrs in age apart so the entire experience has meshed together, has truly been the most rewarding experience of mine and my wife's lives.

And when I expand it out to watching my kids interact with my parents and the fun they have with them (heck, me, my son and my parents play a few rounds of golf a year as a 3 generation foursome on the course and that is so much fun) plus even getting a few times a year to see my kids interact with me, my Mom and her Mom who turns 101 years old tomorrow and is still mentally very much still there, that feeling of immense joy and what the sense of family is has me never thinking about all the challenges that parenting does carry with it.

I have multiple couple friends who for various reasons chose or can't have kids and are totally happy and content with their lives and choices. I also have plenty of friends who are parents who do express some remorse about being a parent (they tend to be very selfish, shallow people IMHO) and I have way more friends who are parents who are thrilled with being a parent.

It's a complex issue for some, and it certainly can generate the full run of emotions

 

[thebigo]

I am 43, with very few exceptions every friend my age has 2+ kids, ample disposable income and the professional freedom to live or do whatever they want. From my view point, mid career Americans are doing better than our parents were at this age.

The kids currently in their mid 20's are the screwed generation. Several young engineers at work are stuck in this rut of living with parents or paying massively overpriced rent. Turmoil throughout their formative years has left them distrustful of both the job market and real estate market. Sucks to see miserable kids that did everything right.

 

[Zand]

Just turned 31. Been married almost 6 years. Made the mistake of going to college 13 years ago and still paying for it to this day. Parents didn't save a dime and got no financial aid, so that $30,000 per year for 4 years plus interest has me still paying $880 per month through 2025 after starting repayment in 2013.

Maybe once I finally pay off the scam that is college then we might be able to afford a house. Then give that a couple years and suddenly we're 37 or 38 before we can even think about having kids. If I didnt fall for the college propaganda 13 years ago and went right to work at 18, I probably would have had a house 8 years ago and would be making what I am anyway.

Learn a trade kids.

 

[KustyTheKlown]

Just turned 31. Been married almost 6 years. Made the mistake of going to college 13 years ago and still paying for it to this day. Parents didn't save a dime and got no financial aid, so that $30,000 per year for 4 years plus interest has me still paying $880 per month through 2025 after starting repayment in 2013.

Maybe once I finally pay off the scam that is college then we might be able to afford a house. Then give that a couple years and suddenly we're 37 or 38 before we can even think about having kids. If I didnt fall for the college propaganda 13 years ago and went right to work at 18, I probably would have had a house 8 years ago and would be making what I am anyway.

Learn a trade kids.

yea, my student loans are fucked. also didn't help coming out of college right before the global financial crisis and law school smack in the middle of it. got to miss out on the past 15 years of market gains because i was too busy making payments on loans that barely effected the principal balance. didn't get to truly save and put a little cushion together til covid paused loans and allowed me to seriously save on day to day life expenses.

its our fault for taking the loans, but we were going off the prevailing conventional wisdom of the time. i also turned down full-ride scholarships to "B" level law schools to go to an "A-" level law school. again, based on the advice of people in the legal industry and the prevailing wisdom at the time. DUMB

an entire generation stuck in arrested development, unable to own homes and start families. silver lining for me is i don't want kids. if i did want kids, i'd be very upset by circumstance

 

[Smellytele]

If you wait until you think you can afford kids you will never have them.

 

[KustyTheKlown]

well that doesnt sound enjoyable at all lol

 

[ss20]

If you wait until you think you can afford kids you will never have them.

I had a boss and good friend who did this he's kicking himself for it. Tough to be in your 60s when your offspring is a teen.

My parents also waited to have me til their 40s (rare for the time ofc). In my 20s it was tough as that's when kids usually start "coming back around" to their parents but by then my folks wanted to play scrabble, go on cruises, and not do much of anything physical. To me age 30 sounds perfect to have kids. Then you have your 50s to still keep up with them in outdoor lifestyles (something which we all certainly lead).

 

[KustyTheKlown]

also, on student loans, i am anticipating blanket $10k forgiveness for people earning under $150k, but in my opinion this is a band-aid on a bullet wound. i would much rather see waiver of accrued interest (keep dreamin), or at a minimum a hard cap on interest rates for student loans, even if its below the prime rate. student loans shouldn't be a money making opportunity for the govt. my rate is usurious and i can't refinance until a decision is made on federal forgiveness, and even then the new interest rate environment wont save me that much.

i have been making payments for 12 years. i have paid an amount equal to approximately 60% of my principal balance. my principal balance is higher than the day i left fordham.

 

[jimmywilson69]

Had my son when we were way too young, but the bonus is he'll be a senior in college starting in the fall. I am 45.

Being of the age in between say Krusty and Jimk, I fully see both sides. As a matter of fact that's why my wife and I only have 1 offspring. Neither of us were ready at the same time and then we said F it.

College is stupid expensive. Right before I paid my son's Junior year 1st semester I still had as much money as it cost me for 4.5 years of college. We're paying for 80-85% of it and he's responsible for the rest via loans. I wanted him to have some skin in the game. We will certainly help with the loans if we can, especially since Physician Assistant school is all on him. Of course we'll help with things, but the schooling is on him.

There is a College problem in this country. 1) everyone doesn't need to go to college 2) college doesn't need to be so expensive. They'll never admit it, but the "institution" of college is fully responsible for both of these.