Belleayre and NYS Budget Cuts

[thinnmann]

The Governor's intentions are revealed by the DEC's decision to cancel the Belleayre October Fall Festival. .......... Perhaps Governor Paterson is hoping no one will notice his efforts to crush Belleayre until the damage is irreversible.

For sure..the 28 corridor is already incredibly depressed. Phoenicia is a nice little town but look at Fleishmans..that town is a hole...The Deleware court motel, a mini-mart and liquor store is all there is..What happened to the proposed Belleayre resort??? .........

Don't forget Pine Hill and Margaretville. And there are a couple more properties in Fleishmans, like the new tex-mex place and other little motels.

My conspiracy theory thinking is leading me to believe that this is all related to the Belleayre Resort: If they can squelch Belleayre for one season and really squeeze the economic balls of the area, then the big politically-connected deal with Glitter and company can be touted as the savior of Belleayre and the entire region...

 

[Richard Ellis]

If they can squelch Belleayre for one season and really squeeze the economic balls of the area, then the big politically-connected deal with Glitter and company can be touted as the savior of Belleayre and the entire region...

Of course this is a scorched Earth policy. If this was about saving money the Belleayre Fall October Festival would not have been cancelled as it turns a good profit. The extent of Governor Patterson's planned budget cuts would not have been held secret for months if Albany engaged in a serious debate on how to allocate the State budget.

There is something more going on, particularly since Governor David Paterson last week vetoed the bill establishing a commission to examine the economic impacts of Belleayre. Since that bill passed unanimously in the State Senate and 134 to 2 in the Assembly, Paterson's veto is going to cost him some political capital. He must have a very good (nefarious) reason for wanting to kill it.

Governor Paterson is intent on killing Belleayre, at least for this season. Time will tell us why, hopefully he can be stopped before then.

I haven't told my nine year old daughter she may not have a ski team this year. I have no idea how to have that conversation...

 

[SkiDork]

Of course this is a scorched Earth policy. If this was about saving money the Belleayre Fall October Festival would not have been cancelled as it turns a good profit. The extent of Governor Patterson's planned budget cuts would not have been held secret for months if Albany engaged in a serious debate on how to allocate the State budget.

There is something more going on, particularly since Governor David Paterson last week vetoed the bill establishing a commission to examine the economic impacts of Belleayre. Since that bill passed unanimously in the State Senate and 134 to 2 in the Assembly, Paterson's veto is going to cost him some political capital. He must have a very good (nefarious) reason for wanting to kill it.

Governor Paterson is intent on killing Belleayre, at least for this season. Time will tell us why, hopefully he can be stopped before then.

I haven't told my nine year old daughter she may not have a ski team this year. I have no idea how to have that conversation...

How come your location is Deer Valley UT?

 

[ERJ-145CA]

Of course this is a scorched Earth policy. If this was about saving money the Belleayre Fall October Festival would not have been cancelled as it turns a good profit. The extent of Governor Patterson's planned budget cuts would not have been held secret for months if Albany engaged in a serious debate on how to allocate the State budget.

There is something more going on, particularly since Governor David Paterson last week vetoed the bill establishing a commission to examine the economic impacts of Belleayre. Since that bill passed unanimously in the State Senate and 134 to 2 in the Assembly, Paterson's veto is going to cost him some political capital. He must have a very good (nefarious) reason for wanting to kill it.

Governor Paterson is intent on killing Belleayre, at least for this season. Time will tell us why, hopefully he can be stopped before then.

I haven't told my nine year old daughter she may not have a ski team this year. I have no idea how to have that conversation...

He could have friends in Hunter and Windham's counties and he was afraid that the commission would have showed a negligible impact on Hunter and Windham so he decided to veto it and just shut Belleayre down himself.

 

[Richard Ellis]

How come your location is Deer Valley UT?

I am in Scarsdale, NY. When setting up my account I thought I was asked where the picture was taken, not where I am. Let me go sort it out.

 

[WJenness]

Of course this is a scorched Earth policy. If this was about saving money the Belleayre Fall October Festival would not have been cancelled as it turns a good profit. The extent of Governor Patterson's planned budget cuts would not have been held secret for months if Albany engaged in a serious debate on how to allocate the State budget.

There is something more going on, particularly since Governor David Paterson last week vetoed the bill establishing a commission to examine the economic impacts of Belleayre. Since that bill passed unanimously in the State Senate and 134 to 2 in the Assembly, Paterson's veto is going to cost him some political capital. He must have a very good (nefarious) reason for wanting to kill it.

Governor Paterson is intent on killing Belleayre, at least for this season. Time will tell us why, hopefully he can be stopped before then.

I haven't told my nine year old daughter she may not have a ski team this year. I have no idea how to have that conversation...

Can the bill be overridden by the legislature like federal bills can? Seems like it would be an easy override with that voting record.

-w

 

[SkiDork]

I am in Scarsdale, NY. When setting up my account I thought I was asked where the picture was taken, not where I am. Let me go sort it out.

oh, OK. I get it now. Cool.

Hey. do you happen to know a family that skis at Belleayre last name Gibson? Oldest son is named Max?

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

Don't forget Pine Hill and Margaretville. And there are a couple more properties in Fleishmans, like the new tex-mex place and other little motels.

My conspiracy theory thinking is leading me to believe that this is all related to the Belleayre Resort: If they can squelch Belleayre for one season and really squeeze the economic balls of the area, then the big politically-connected deal with Glitter and company can be touted as the savior of Belleayre and the entire region...

Are you for or against the Belleayre resort??? I'm for it because then there will finally be decent lodging..slopeside at that....it will provide lots of jobs...and annexing Belleayre with Highmount would be sweet...a high speed quad to replace the Tomahawk lift would be awesome..

 

[Richard Ellis]

Can the bill be overridden by the legislature like federal bills can? Seems like it would be an easy override with that voting record.
-w

I don't know. The study would take more than a year to complete anyway. It is the budget discretion and control of DEC that Governor Paterson has that concerns me. He can kill ten years of momentum in one season if he is so inclined.

Hey. do you happen to know a family that skis at Belleayre last name Gibson? Oldest son is named Max?

Let me think about that one. There are two boys named Max that ski at Belleayre. Let me ask my daughter.

He could have friends in Hunter and Windham's counties and he was afraid that the commission would have showed a negligible impact on Hunter and Windham so he decided to veto it and just shut Belleayre down himself.

My view is Hunter and Windham are utilized to capacity as it is. They pack so many busses in I can't imagine they could handle any more business. I always thought their crying was to obtain some State tax breaks, not kill Belleayre. Skiing is a herd sport, your friends go so you go. Having more ski areas open increases business for everyone. It is not a zero sum situation. I think they know that. But, studies are what ifs. They can easily be designed to show whatever you want.

If Belleayre does not have the programs this year, we are NOT going to ski in the Catskills.

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

If Belleayre does not have the programs this year, we are NOT going to ski in the Catskills.

Then where are you going to ski???

 

[thinnmann]

Are you for or against the Belleayre resort??? I'm for it because then there will finally be decent lodging..slopeside at that....it will provide lots of jobs...and annexing Belleayre with Highmount would be sweet...a high speed quad to replace the Tomahawk lift would be awesome..

I am against the resort. Save the mountain. It isn't just about winter - given the choice between a trip hiking and camping in wilderness vs. a trip to a resort, I am going to choose the hiking and camping any day. The strength of the Catskills is wilderness, not resorts. And it will totally change the Belleayre local old-school family hill vibe, which I love. Most of the the resort jobs would be low-wage jobs, while all the management will be hired from out of town and friends of Crossroad Ventures. Plus, if they follow the ski industry standard, many of the service workers will be hired from eastern Europe. Belleayre had planned a new high speed lift, but I believe it was not to be a replacement for Tomahawk, but an additional lift from the vicinity of Discovery Lodge to the top.

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

I am against the resort. Save the mountain. It isn't just about winter - given the choice between a trip hiking and camping in wilderness vs. a trip to a resort, I am going to choose the hiking and camping any day. The strength of the Catskills is wilderness, not resorts. And it will totally change the Belleayre local old-school family hill vibe, which I love. Most of the the resort jobs would be low-wage jobs, while all the management will be hired from out of town and friends of Crossroad Ventures. Plus, if they follow the ski industry standard, many of the service workers will be hired from eastern Europe. Belleayre had planned a new high speed lift, but I believe it was not to be a replacement for Tomahawk, but an additional lift from the vicinity of Discovery Lodge to the top.

My take is that you can stay at a nice resort with comfortable accomadations and go skiing/hiking during the day..

 

[learn2turn]

The obvious solution is for the state to lease the ski area to a private operator. There's no reason in the world why a properly managed ski area can't show a modest profit most years. ...particularly if you don't have a pile of debt run up to either buy the resort in the first place or update the infrastructure.

That worked for Wachusett. The state of Mass leased almost 30 years ago and the lessees (WMA) built it into one of the most successful small-to-mid-sized mountains in the country.

Hey, someone tell the Crowleys that Belleayre is on the block!!!

 

[Geoff]

That worked for Wachusett. The state of Mass leased almost 30 years ago and the lessees (WMA) built it into one of the most successful small-to-mid-sized mountains in the country.

Hey, someone tell the Crowleys that Belleayre is on the block!!!

New Hampshire does the same thing with Sunapee. The Muellers lease it from the state. I believe the state still uses the money from the lease to make capital improvements to Cannon. A year or so ago, some people in the NH legislature were trying to put Cannon up for lease but I think it got killed every time.

 

[ta&idaho]

I personally have no problem with New York taxpayers subsidizing my ski habit, but I also understand the Belleayre criticism. That place feels like what I imagine skiing in the Soviet Union must have been like. I'm all for old school mountains (love Homewood on the West shore of Lake Tahoe, for example), but Belleayre is a little ridiculous.

Using state money to fund needed capital improvements is one thing, but it should be able to break even on day-to-day operations.

 

[evantrentful]

I make a 90min trek from Orange County,NY to ski at bellearye almost weekly, it would be a real loss to see it killed off (whether it be literal or limited operations). Something seems so strange, for all the Naysayers about mismanagement and waste, Belleayre doesnt gun nearly half as much as Windham or Hunter throughout the season, mainly due to capcity im sure but this also points out that they arent pissing away my tax dollars on endless improvements to the facility, their lodges are reasonable, nothing like the lodge Windham had built.

Its affordable and its friendly, Im a 22yearold skier i ride in the park and rip around on my twintips and probably have no reason to be at belleayre over the other two mountains, but theres something about Belleayre thats not so commercialized and busy. I grew up skiing on Whiteface and Belleayre in my opinion is the only thing in new york that comes close to its feel... on a mountain thats half its size

 

[Trekchick]

Usually by this date we have purchased season passes and put kids into the racing program at Belleayre. I have been checking the Belleayre web site, where for the past month or so it has said they are working on pricing and programs for the coming season, please check back. There has been some controversy surrounding the proposed Belleayre Resort, and more from the unfair competition alleged against Belleayre by Hunter and Wyndham.

I received this email from the Belleayre Mountain Racing Association, the youth program my kids participate in. It says to pass it on, so:

PLEASE DO NOT DELETE THIS EMAIL
BELOW ARE 2 LETTERS FROM COACH RALPH AND ROSINA, A SKI PATROLLER @BELLEAYRE
PLEASE READ AND PASS ON

Hi All

Please take this seriously. Belleayre and our region need your support. NYS budget cuts are proposing a major funding shortfall for Belleayre Mt for the 08/09 season. The 08 Fall Festival for Columbus weekend has already been cancelled. The proposal for the winter is somewhere between operating one or two lifts with NO RACING, NO SKIWEE, NO ALPINE programs TO A COMPLETE SHUT DOWN OF BELLEAYRE FOR THE WINTER. Everyone associated with this community needs to support the continued operation of Belleayre. Please step forward and make your voice heard in favor of Belleayre Mt.

What can you do? Email or write DEC - www.dec.ny.gov/about/407.html
Email or write the Governor- www.ny.gov/governor/index.html

Thank You,

Ralph Combe Jr.
...address edit..

Dear Belleayre Ski Patrollers:
DEC has dealt Belleayre Ski Center a devastating budget. To this end the following has been decided:
The Octoberfest has been cancelled
Nursery will be not open
No skiwee, alpine development, or racing programs
Full time Patrol positions cut.
Limited snow making
Possible operation of only the Superchief.

What can you do?
Email or write DEC - www.dec.ny.gov/about/407.html
Email or write the Governor- www.ny.gov/governor/index.html

They need to hear from all of us. Do you know what this will do to Delaware and Ulster County economically? The Governor vetoed the proposed legislation to establish a Blue Ribbon Commission to look into public recreation (proposed by the lobbying of Green County - Hunter and Windham ). However, the same was accomplished by the budget cuts. They have killed Belleayre Ski Center , putting us back into the 70's and 80's. You may think I am being dramatic, but folks, if we don't do something about this, it is over. Send this to your friends and make this effort to contact the DEC and Governor mushroom. They need to hear from us so that they can understand the devastation this will cause.
Rosina​

Would you mind if I posted this on EpicSki, to help get the word out?

 

[Richard Ellis]

Go for it. That email was sent to me along with a note to pass it along to everyone who cares about Belleayre.

You may be interested in the Daily Freeman article here.

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

From the article..

Skier visits have grown from 70,000 in 1995 to more than 175,000 skiers with visitors from all over the world


Why would the state mess with something so good..they should continue to operate Belleayre and then sell it..

 

[thinnmann]

I personally have no problem with New York taxpayers subsidizing my ski habit, but I also understand the Belleayre criticism. That place feels like what I imagine skiing in the Soviet Union must have been like. I'm all for old school mountains (love Homewood on the West shore of Lake Tahoe, for example), but Belleayre is a little ridiculous.

Using state money to fund needed capital improvements is one thing, but it should be able to break even on day-to-day operations.

I am not sure that everyone is aware that the Catskill Park AND Belleayre Mountain was created by an amendment to the NY State constitution. Belleayre is limited by the amendment, but it is also conversely mandated. Legislators, representing the taxpayers, created Catskill Park AND Belleayre; as such, there should be a stewardship to continue to support the area in the spirit of the NY state constitution.

The taxpayers of NY are not subsidizing your ski habit, they are attracting you to the area so you spend your money there. They are subsidizing their own economic viability. If Belleayre and its programs go, an untold amount of the skiers who spend their money in that area are not switching to other Catskills hills. Instead, they will suck up the extra drive time and head up to VT, Gore or Whiteface.

So far, some folks who have contributed to this thread have called Belleayre "retarded" and "a little ridiculous". And I am not even talking about DMC.... Heaping negativity during a difficult economy is what seems to me to be retarded and ridiculous. The closing of any ski hill, regardless of the reasons, is bad for the sport, the industry, the local economy and the people who depend on it to feed their families. Even if you don't care about others, you can realize selfishly that closing one place reduces your choices of where to ski, and reduces competition so prices elsewhere may rise.

The loss of Belleayre, or even any fraction of its operating potential, is a losing proposition for all skiers and boarders from NY, NJ, and PA.