My favorite Killington upper mountain lift plan, this week.

[AdironRider]

Seriously, HStar, you need to get it out of your head that its good business to try and open Killington every year in October. ASC went under for a reason, and I have no doubt that Smith and ASC lost a ton of money opening up early.

Opening early only provides a slight bit of marketing and pleases locals and passholders, theres nothing about it that is profitable.

You argue that all its going to take is one year where its warm till December, if thats the case, this lift wont be utilized then either. I highly doubt if its that warm to prevent a top to bottom opening till December, that itll be total winter up top. Its just not going to happen.

Would I like to see an October opening every year, sure. Loveland had their earliest opening ever, or one of the earliest, this year, and opened with 1 trail towards the middle of October. Their summit elevation is 13000 feet, theres no way Killington at 4000 feet will have an easier time.

Can we stop talking about this now?

 

[Highway Star]

Seriously, HStar, you need to get it out of your head that its good business to try and open Killington every year in October. ASC went under for a reason, and I have no doubt that Smith and ASC lost a ton of money opening up early.

Opening early only provides a slight bit of marketing and pleases locals and passholders, theres nothing about it that is profitable.

You argue that all its going to take is one year where its warm till December, if thats the case, this lift wont be utilized then either. I highly doubt if its that warm to prevent a top to bottom opening till December, that itll be total winter up top. Its just not going to happen.

Would I like to see an October opening every year, sure. Loveland had their earliest opening ever, or one of the earliest, this year, and opened with 1 trail towards the middle of October. Their summit elevation is 13000 feet, theres no way Killington at 4000 feet will have an easier time.

Can we stop talking about this now?

You've completely lost it.

 

[Highway Star]

Seriously, HStar, you need to get it out of your head that its good business to try and open Killington every year in October. ASC went under for a reason, and I have no doubt that Smith and ASC lost a ton of money opening up early.

Opening early only provides a slight bit of marketing and pleases locals and passholders, theres nothing about it that is profitable.

You argue that all its going to take is one year where its warm till December, if thats the case, this lift wont be utilized then either. I highly doubt if its that warm to prevent a top to bottom opening till December, that itll be total winter up top. Its just not going to happen.

Would I like to see an October opening every year, sure. Loveland had their earliest opening ever, or one of the earliest, this year, and opened with 1 trail towards the middle of October. Their summit elevation is 13000 feet, theres no way Killington at 4000 feet will have an easier time.

Can we stop talking about this now?

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. I've never seen so many false statements in one post.

They started opening in October on the Killington Double, I think back in the 70's. It was a major selling point for them that they were first to open, last to close. It's part of what built them into the biggest (by DOUBLE the skier visits) resort in the east.

Opening early never lost them lots of money. It was break even or profitable. Any lack if direct revenue was made up for in FREE MARKETING, pass sales, and follow-on visits.

They have made snow in September and opened on Oct. 1st several years. They have a elevation advantage on the upper mountain. Loveland in CO may have elevation, but it is much further south. Back when Killington ws trying, they would almost always open before the western resorts, and yes they were competing.

Even with warm spells, it is MUCH easier to open on the upper mountain than on a full K-1 route. Every time they have be delayed on the K-1 opening until mid-late November, they certainly could have been open on the upper mountain 3-4 weeks before.

ASC went under for one reason, and that reason was bad debt. Killington was VERY profitable when they were opening in october and closing in may-june. They became less profitable as corners were cut in what they provided to the customer.

 

[ski_resort_observer]

Highway Star wrote to AdironRider:

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. I've never seen so many false statements in one post.

Obviously, you don't read your own posts. :lol:







laughter is always the best medicine

 

[bobbutts]

I use to draw plans for ski areas, trails where I thought they should go, lifts etc. I was 10.

And now you've matured so much you spend your time trying to make people look bad on ski forums.. Bravo

 

[speden]

Loveland in CO may have elevation, but it is much further south.

Hmmm, that's an interesting question. Apparently temperature decreases at about 3.57 degrees F per 1000 feet. The effect of lattitude is harder to guage, since it seems influenced by longitude as well, but it appears to be roughly about 2 degrees F per degree north you go in lattitude.

The difference in lattitude between Loveland and Killington looks to be about 3.92 degrees, so that's about -8 degrees Fahrenheit temperature advantage for K.

The difference in summit elevations is about 8769 feet advantage for Loveland, or -31 degrees F. The difference in base elevation is about 9435 feet advantage for L, or -33.7 degrees F.

Taking the effect of both lattitude and elevation into account, Loveland has about a -23 degrees F advantage at the summit, and -25.7 degrees F advantage at the base.

Looking at today's actual temps, the summit at L was 29 degrees colder than K, and its base was 18 degrees colder. Obviously wind patterns and other factors have a great impact on temperature as well. But based on this crude analysis, Loveland seems to have a huge early season advantage over K for making and keeping snow.

 

[Tin]

I use to draw plans for ski areas, trails where I thought they should go, lifts etc. I was 10.

Some of us still do that in Ancient Philosophy class...

I like the idea, but there are a lot of other resorts that could be "highwaystared" before K.

 

[AdironRider]

HStar, Im not being sarcastic in the least bit. Killington was hurting before Powdr took over. Just because they were profitable back in the day when energy was cheap doesnt mean that today, 20 years later, that its the same situation. Bad debt was a result of bad business practices, and trying to open every year in October and pissing money down the drain is just one of several bad financial decisions.

In every argument you present you also fail to realize that other resorts have become much better in terms of service, infastructure, amenities, snowmaking, etc. Back in the day Killington was the best in most of these areas, now theyre not even in the top 5.

Just like how the prom queen from high school isnt that hot anymore 20 years after the fact. A couple kids, smoking and drinking in college, etc leave her old, ragged, and never will she be the same. Get over it.

 

[bobbutts]

HStar, Im not being sarcastic in the least bit. Killington was hurting before Powdr took over. Just because they were profitable back in the day when energy was cheap doesnt mean that today, 20 years later, that its the same situation. Bad debt was a result of bad business practices, and trying to open every year in October and pissing money down the drain is just one of several bad financial decisions.

In every argument you present you also fail to realize that other resorts have become much better in terms of service, infastructure, amenities, snowmaking, etc. Back in the day Killington was the best in most of these areas, now theyre not even in the top 5.

Just like how the prom queen from high school isnt that hot anymore 20 years after the fact. A couple kids, smoking and drinking in college, etc leave her old, ragged, and never will she be the same. Get over it.

Energy cost to run old equipment and lack of existing lift make sense right now, although energy is not as bad this year compared to recent past. I'd expect Killington to address both of those things in the next decade or so though.

 

[Highway Star]

HStar, Im not being sarcastic in the least bit. Killington was hurting before Powdr took over. Just because they were profitable back in the day when energy was cheap doesnt mean that today, 20 years later, that its the same situation. Bad debt was a result of bad business practices, and trying to open every year in October and pissing money down the drain is just one of several bad financial decisions.

:roll:

Seriously dude, go buy a clue. Or take a history lesson. You are absurdly uninformed on this.

ASC bought Killington in the mid 90's. Les Otten (ASC) was on a huge buying/expansion spree across the country, fueled by roughly $500M in loans, buying up and expanding resorts like mad. By 2000, they weren't selling real estate fast enough and had to start refinacing their loans. Les was forced out, most of the operating profit went to servicing debt. At Killington and the other eastern resorts, "quality of skiing product was cut" along with pass prices.

This has NOTHING to do with Killington opening in October, aside from them making the decision to install the K-1 Gondola in the late 90's, instaid of completing the interconnect as they were running out of money.

Bottom line, every year Killington opened in October, they were profitable, to the tune of many millions of dollars. Killington's peak years were when they were owned by SKI Inc, ran from October to June, and had a million skier visits.


:roll::roll::roll::roll::roll:

 

[AdironRider]

:roll:

Seriously dude, go buy a clue. Or take a history lesson. You are absurdly uninformed on this.

ASC bought Killington in the mid 90's. Les Otten (ASC) was on a huge buying/expansion spree across the country, fueled by roughly $500M in loans, buying up and expanding resorts like mad. By 2000, they weren't selling real estate fast enough and had to start refinacing their loans. Les was forced out, most of the operating profit went to servicing debt. At Killington and the other eastern resorts, "quality of skiing product was cut" along with pass prices.

This has NOTHING to do with Killington opening in October, aside from them making the decision to install the K-1 Gondola in the late 90's, instaid of completing the interconnect as they were running out of money.

Bottom line, every year Killington opened in October, they were profitable, to the tune of many millions of dollars. Killington's peak years were when they were owned by SKI Inc, ran from October to June, and had a million skier visits.


:roll::roll::roll::roll::roll:

Once again you fail to realize the competition improving and surpassing Killington. Roll your eyes all you want, but youre never going to get a million dollar lift to be used for 2 weeks a year.

 

[Highway Star]

Once again you fail to realize the competition improving and surpassing Killington. Roll your eyes all you want, but youre never going to get a million dollar lift to be used for 2 weeks a year.

:roll:

The competition has improved and in some ways surpassed Killington. Whats? Duuhhrrrr. Thanks captain obvious! I wonder why their skier visits went from 1M+ to 700k or less....?

Killington has publicly stated multiple times that a new lift for early season skiing is a project they are interested in, under both ASC and POWDR. When they brought in a consultant several years back, an upper mountain lift was highlighted as being a priority capital project.

:roll::-o

 

[WWF-VT]

Bottom line, every year Killington opened in October, they were profitable, to the tune of many millions of dollars. Killington's peak years were when they were owned by SKI Inc, ran from October to June, and had a million skier visits.

Been a long time since K has seen a million skier visits. Any way to provide us with facts about K's profits back then specific to Killington ? SKI LTD owned Killington Ltd., Mount Snow Ltd., Bear Mountain Ltd., Sugarloaf Mountain Corp., Waterville Valley Ski Area Ltd. and Ski Insurance Company.

 

[Rogman]

There is simply no room to put the landing zone of a new lift skiers left of the Gondola.

 

[bigbob]

HS, you live in the Boston area so get one of these and you can ski in October and into May to boot, right now and not have to wait till hell freezes over!! I did along with a K blackout.

http://www.sundayriver.com/TicketsPasses/Season_Passes.html

 

[Highway Star]

HS, you live in the Boston area so get one of these and you can ski in October and into May to boot, right now and not have to wait till hell freezes over!! I did along with a K blackout.

http://www.sundayriver.com/TicketsPasses/Season_Passes.html

Brilliant.

 

[Highway Star]

There is simply no room to put the landing zone of a new lift skiers left of the Gondola.

Sure there is. You would loose a small amount of trees and have to do some grading and cement work, but a small non-drive, non-tension bullwheel would certainly fit in there no problem. And there would be enough room for people to stand around, with some re-grading.

 

[drjeff]

:roll:

The competition has improved and in some ways surpassed Killington. Whats? Duuhhrrrr. Thanks captain obvious! I wonder why their skier visits went from 1M+ to 700k or less....?

Killington has publicly stated multiple times that a new lift for early season skiing is a project they are interested in, under both ASC and POWDR. When they brought in a consultant several years back, an upper mountain lift was highlighted as being a priority capital project.

:roll::-o

Just like k has stated publically that the Beast of The East is back, the pico interconnect will happen, the k village will built, etc, etc, etc. Results speak much louder than speculative talk!

 

[Highway Star]

Bump.

.