On slope collisions

[billski]

Ione of my reasons for trying to be in the trees during peak hours.

I like trees. They don't move unpredictably. :roll:

While I agree with the general theme of awareness , consideration of others and education, I also wonder if perhaps speed differential is also a factor.

Many studies have shown that highway traffic is much safer when all vehicles operate at the same speed. The worst accidents occur when there is a high speed differential between the two objects. I suspect the same thing happens with skiing/boarding.

Here are my suggestions

First the resorts:
I really, really hate it when they have black (and sometimes) trails emptying into greens. This puts the wrong skiers on the wrong slopes. Some resorts fixed the most egregious configurations years ago, but many remain. I like the MRG layout as one good example. I skied all day on greens with my little one, and never once did we have anyone blow by us mach schnell. I'd like to see more thought go into how traffic is channeled.

A second suggestion might be to create some sort of "rest area" where slow skiers can stop and start safely. You certainly could do this on some of the widely boulevard trails, simply with netting. Of course this is easier said than done.

Second the skiers/boarders:
Don't go where you don't belong. The logic needs to be applied in BOTH directions. I mean diamond skiers going on circle trails. Either stay out or slow down to the pace of everyone else.

There are still many shades of gray here, and I've avoided blue transitions all together.

 

[puckoach]

You answered your own question.

"Of course, everyone always remembers the first rule of skiing, the person downhill has the right of way"


People can try and talk themselves into anything. But, that means the uphill has No Rights.

No yelling, clicking, or I thought...., is an acceptable answer.

The uphill person has a 100% responsability.

 

[andyaxa]

We had a similar situation with our 7 year old. Thread here... http://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php?t=73121 Uphill skier should have been in control and slower in the zone and my kid should have checked before cutting across. We have drilled into them about looking uphill before starting back onto the trail or entering from their little side trails or merging, but this was a good lesson on being a courteous skier. When we hit the same area again on Saturday with a lot more people she did a great job.

MY problem is, I'm starting to explore some more blue trails with more pitch. Ideally I'll tackle something new midweek, but we can't always be so fortunate. What happens to me is I'll be working in a tight-ish turning radius but may come across steeper pitch or bumped out area that I want to skirt. It's still a little hard looking over my shoulder while carrying speed, so unless I know I am alone on the run I'll put on the breaks, not a full hockey stop, but a pretty good slide, glance uphill and then continue to my more comfortable line. What really freaked me out with the new Spring conditions is the new sound of my tails throwing snow (not quite the carver yet :sad I keep thinking it's another skiier about to plow into me.

 

[bigbog]

..As said, if I'm going to be on a boarder's blind side when we would possibly be closing in on each other I'm going to check behind and pull over to let him dissappear. It always works....or glance back and if clear..I replace him on the left side...works nicely too. On these groomers, especially on the wkends, you often really do have to go with the ski that'll offer the best way out..imho.

 

[57stevey]

I've had several of the exact same instances you describe (people making an unpredictable change in direction while I'm passing). I've never had an actual collision but I've come very close. Here's thing....in that scenario it was absolutely my fault. And in the 2 that you describe.... absolutely your fault. If I was the snowboarder's dad I would have been all over YOU. Then later I would have talked to my kid about being more cautious about sudden changes in direction.

This.

Except that when it has occurred, and it has, I have only spoken to my kid about not starting out into traffic. Sudden changes of direction should be expected when sharing trails with skiers/riders of mixed abilities. She's also been taught to be aware of this when she is the overtaking skier and I have seen her several times come to a complete stop to allow traffic to clear when she was not 100% sure she could get through safely. If a teenager can internalize this, then we can too.

 

[RootDKJ]

I spend a lot of time moving through crowded trails at high speeds. Not by choice mind you. There's a limit to my speed vs the density of people on the trails as well, but that being said, I'm pretty sure I'm moving at speeds that make the other people uncomfortable if "I come too close" to them.

I haven't hit anyone, but I've had a few close calls, including one where I'm not really sure how I didn't hit their board after he decided the middle of a trail right after a sharp turn was a good place to sit down. :roll:

That being said, I spend more time looking at the path ahead of me then I do the snow ahead of me. I look for people who might appear to cross my line and make sure I'm heading in direction their tails are pointing at. I figure I can turn more sharply then anyone I need to be worried about colliding with me. I've also learned that people like to sit down unexpectedly, mostly not in a good location. That sucks worse then trying to avoid someone making an abrupt turn.

 

[jrmagic]

I agree that the first rule of the code prevails 100% ofthe time. That said, if I am downhill I always consider people uphill if I ahve stopped and restarting, changing lines etc. My little guy is pretty good skier but marches to the beat of his own drum and makes some unexpected changes in the cadence of his turns and I am worried that he will get hit if he keeps it up. I always tell him to be consistent with his turns. I also have been ingraining it into him to always be looking uphill or anywhere else a skier/boarder can be coming from at an intersection.

 

[Cannonball]

Okay, how do you figure that?

See my quote from earlier:
Thing is, after the first incident years back, I have made a much more conscience effort to pass on the wider side of the trail. I didn't this time, assuming some 25 foot clearance should be good. Bad assumption on my part, obviously. .......

Just am kinda interested in your reasoning.

The reasoning is pretty simple. If you hit someone who was downhill from you then you did not have enough clearance....it's your fault. Wide side, tight side, doesn't matter. I often choose the tight side for the very reason that people are less likely to make a sudden turn towards the trees. And yup, I've often ended up passing with inches to spare. Those are the cases I mentioned. And yup, it was my fault. I could have (maybe should have) slowed down and made a safer pass.

I totally appreciate how frustrating it is when people make sudden changes in direction. Even worse, the skier/rider who seems to just keep coming across the whole trail as you're passing. But it's still your responsibility. If you have to come to a full stop, do it.

 

[andyaxa]

... My little guy is pretty good skier but marches to the beat of his own drum and makes some unexpected changes in the cadence of his turns and I am worried that he will get hit if he keeps it up.

That's the same with our youngest. She's always looking for something other than the trail. She might be popping in and out of the trees on one side of the trail, spot something cool to jump on the other side and cut across for it. The close call last week really opened her eyes to the fact that there are other skiers in the world. It's a developmental thing with kids and when they start to be cognizant of the society around them. But on the slopes it's not only courtesy it's safety. On the steeper blues she's fine, one line, straight down. She can turn. I've seen her move around and slow for traffic below her, but usually, if there's nothing to play on, it's straight to the bottom. Minutes later I catch up and suggest maybe she toss in a few little turns just for kicks. No fun, she says. Gotta get her some lessons in the Park, I think.

 

[oakapple]

I spend a lot of time moving through crowded trails at high speeds. Not by choice mind you. There's a limit to my speed vs the density of people on the trails as well, but that being said, I'm pretty sure I'm moving at speeds that make the other people uncomfortable if "I come too close" to them.

I don't want to seem too judgmental, since I haven't seen you ski. But if you are moving at high speeds "not by choice," it sounds like you are either out of control, or willfully pursuing your own enjoyment to the detriment of others'.

While it is technically not a violation of the Responsibility Code to just narrowly avoid someone, I think it is rude to do so if a change in your own behavior would allow you to pass with more of a cushion. If you were in a car, how would you feel about drivers who just barely miss hitting you?

 

[RootDKJ]

I don't want to seem too judgmental, since I haven't seen you ski. But if you are moving at high speeds "not by choice," it sounds like you are either out of control, or willfully pursuing your own enjoyment to the detriment of others'.

While it is technically not a violation of the Responsibility Code to just narrowly avoid someone, I think it is rude to do so if a change in your own behavior would allow you to pass with more of a cushion. If you were in a car, how would you feel about drivers who just barely miss hitting you?

The crowds = "not by choice", not my speed. I'll let the few on here I've skied with pass judgment on if I ski out of control. I don't think I am anyway.

 

[gladerider]

i had a collision this weekend at whiteface, too. it was a weird one, though. weird angle. i have no idea where he came from. i am pretty good at checking my blind sides but not on this one. i think he was going faster than i was coming from behind me. when i realized he was there, it was too late to avoid collision. we both got wiped out pretty big. after the incident, i was shaken up. it was obvious he was shaken up. my board got wasted and i am sure he skiis are messed up too. i don't know who's fault it was. what can you do, $hit happens....

 

[MommaBear]

What really freaked me out with the new Spring conditions is the new sound of my tails throwing snow (not quite the carver yet :sad I keep thinking it's another skiier about to plow into me.

Lol! Had the same sensation this weekend with my shadow! Caught a shadow off my left, than off my right and thought someone was behind me trying to get by and I was about to get run over. Turned out it was the snow casting away from my skis causing the shadow.

 

[57stevey]

Nowadays, I can ski real predictable, except in steep bumps and deep virgin powder. And my head is always on swivel, as there are plenty who ski faster than I do, and I don't wish to jump in front of them.

I guess I am in the minority opinion here, but when I am skiing (not starting up, but actively skiing) the last thing I am concerned with is stuff going on behind me that I can't control. Other than a quick check at intersections, my head is pointed down the hill because that's where the trouble may be that I can do something about.

 

[jrmagic]

I always listen to what's going on around me. While you can't necessarily control what's happening behind you, if you hear someone close, you can keep track of them somewaht. It comes in handy if you are going to stop somewhere or you want to change position on the trail etc. Yes they should be watching you but what if they don't know or don't care about the code? Better safe than sorry. That's one reason I will never use headphones no the way down the hill.

 

[ta&idaho]

Be extra careful on any Colorado ski trips, lest you be held liable for ending the career of a (downhill) ballerina: http://www.skisafety.com/cases/ski_collision_cases/ulissey_v_shvartsman.htm

 

[deadheadskier]

I always listen to what's going on around me.

me too

I'm obviously ultra sensitive because of a major accident I had, but I really can't comprehend people listening to tunes, even softly while skiing/riding.

 

[ta&idaho]

Okay, how do you figure that?

I should get back to my actual job, but it looks like many states (western states, at least) put the onus on the uphill skier:

Colorado

Each skier has the duty to maintain control of his speed and course at all times when skiing and to maintain a proper lookout so as to be able to avoid other skiers and objects. However, the primary duty shall be on the person skiing downhill to avoid collision with any person or objects below him.

Colo. Rev. Stat. § 33-44-109(2)

Nevada

A skier or snowboarder shall, to the extent that the matter is within his control . . . maintain a proper lookout and control of his speed to avoid downhill objects, skiers and snowboarders to the best of his ability . . . .

Nev. Rev. Stat. § 455A.110

Oregon

Skiers shall not overtake any other skier except in such a manner as to avoid contact and shall grant the right of way to the overtaken skier.

Or. Rev. Stat. § 30.985(1)(f)

Washington

Because of the inherent risks in the sport of skiing all persons using the ski hill shall exercise reasonable care for their own safety. However, the primary duty shall be on the person skiing downhill to avoid any collision with any person or object below him or her.

Wash. Rev. Code § 7945.030(6)

 

[evil]

I ollie over downed soldiers.

 

[trapedui]

I can't read this thread without thinking of my daughters, ages 5 and 8. I do my best to teach them to ski safely and couteously, but they are still just kids and occasionally do dumbs things. They are good about yielding when trails merge and looking uphill before starting. For my part, I avoid busy trails and when possible, let others go ahead, so that we have no one behind us when we are trying tough terrain. I am hyper-aware of other skiers and try to keep my body between them and my kids.

Despite our efforts, I recognize that we are not always easy to ski with. The kids are good skiers for their age and are learning very quickly. We are constantly trying new trails or conditions that they have never done before. Many adult skiers don't expect to see kids on the trails we ski. Sometimes the kids struggle and may fall or stop in a dangerous spot. Or they may start making quick turns and then make a wide turn across the whole slope to find better snow. I talk to them about skiing predictably and stopping only when it is safe, but they are kids and sometimes forget.

I should say that our experience with other skiers has been excellent so far. I have never heard a complaint and most skiers who stop to talk with us say things like, "She's only 5? That's awesome! When I was your age, I couldn't even ..." These comments are great and really boost their confidence. But once in a while a skier or boarder will zip by way too fast to stop and my heart skips a beat and my blood begins to boil. I can't say that we have had any really close calls, but I do get nervous.

So here is the bottom line for me. I will continue to teach my kids best practices and to ski with eyes in the back of my head, doing my best to avoid bad situations. It is my hope that adult skiers will try to expect the unexpected when skiing near kids. Children need plently of extra space and patience. If we cut someone off and they have to stop, we will apologize; but what is important is that the skier is under control and can stop, if necessary. As the originator of this thread wrote, once bones start breaking, it doesn't really matter whose fault it is. It just becomes a bad situation that can turn a kid off from skiing for life.