Killington = EPIC FAIL. (BMMC replacement edition)

[skiersleft]

Sweet useless closing dates. Killington had the longest season in terms of total days open last year.

This.

It should be obvious that "longest season" means season with the most ski days. Killington earned that title last year. They were not first to open (SR was), they were not last to close (Loaf was), but they were the ski area that operated for the most days last season. So, they had the longest season last season. Simple arithmetic.

BTW, I bet they will have the longest season this season as well.

 

[Highway Star]

Actually, in '06-'07 they had roughly 800k visits and in '07-'08 they had 650k-700k, from various sources. And it was quite obvious for anyone skiing and riding Killington.

FYI, these are real figures, one is from an ASC report, the other news articles.

 

[mondeo]

FYI, these are real figures, one is from an ASC report, the other news articles.

Alright, how many of those reduced visits were All 4 One passes, which were hundreds of dollars cheaper than the passes POWDR brought in?

In this case fewer visits definately doesn't mean lower revenue.

 

[MadPatSki]

Sweet useless closing dates. Killington had the longest season in terms of total days open last year.

AdronRider and skiersleft

I mentioned that I didn't keep track of days open, longest season is in term of total open days. :roll: You're clutching at straws.

Example 1:

Skier 'A' : skis 60 days from January 4 to March 15 (2.5 months)
Skier 'B' : skis 45 days from November to May (7 months)

Using your argument, skier 'A' would have the longest season. :roll:

Example 2:

Killington last season lasted from somewhere in early November 2 to May 1 for x amount of days
Mont St-Sauveur opened from November 20 to May 22 for y amount of days..

Season length : MSS > K
Season days : K*< MSS - probably as MSS was only open on weekends in May,

If you're using days, why not count hours to measure longest season? If that is the case then MSS would probably have the longest season using your definition. Night skiing from late November till early April, 7 nights a week = you're adding an extra 6 hours a day of skiing.

Season hours : MSS > K

Season length is from Day A to Day B, period in my books. Regardless of the definition Kmart used to blow the competition not matter at how you counted it. First to open, Last to open, Most days open, Span between Day 1 to Last Day.

That is the real shame here. Like I mentioned above, I don't care about Killington, I stopped going when I wasn't worth it as they were always cheaper options and it didn't even offer the only skiing in the East or the best quality/price anymore.

 

[deadheadskier]

How is the skiing at MSS? 1st time I've ever heard of it and looked it up tonight based on this thread. I've never skied in Eastern Canada and really only know about the major mountains due to reading skiing rags.

 

[oakapple]

AdronRider and skiersleft

I mentioned that I didn't keep track of days open. . . .

Hence, you posted the wrong information. One could argue what constitutes longest season, but it clearly is not determined by closing date alone.

But beyond that, your analysis obscures several crucial points. Killington and Mont Saint-Saveur are about 4½ hours apart by car, which means very few people have a realistic choice of both as their regular stomping grounds.

In addition, if MSS is 100 percent open, it has about 1/6th the amount of terrain that Killington has open now. (Obviously, the difference is even more vast in years when Killington reaches 100 percent, as it usually does, though not this year.)

Nobody is going to choose MSS as their regular hill because it's open for a few extra days in May, unless they prefer its 57 acres to Killington's 500, or unless it's more geographically convenient, or other reasons having nothing to do with the closing date.

 

[MadPatSki]

Hence, you posted the wrong information. One could argue what constitutes longest season, but it clearly is not determined by closing date alone.

And I stated that I didn't track opening days religiously.

Regardless of the definition Kmart used to blow the competition not matter at how you counted it. First to open, Last to open, Most days open, Span between Day 1 to Last Day.

But beyond that, your analysis obscures several crucial points. Killington and Mont Saint-Saveur are about 4½ hours apart by car, which means very few people have a realistic choice of both as their regular stomping grounds.

I used MSS as an example as their season was the longest in the East last season. What about Jay Peak's season? It closed two weeks after Killington last season, they possibly would have had a longer season than K. And Sunday River for a few years might have had longer season? What about the Boyne Pass holders, the Loaf-River combo has the longest season, wouldn't it? What advantage that K has in 2012?

I love the marketing spin...well it doesn't count, they are not big enough, not the same market, etc. It wasn't factor before, because they were the only game in town. Now K isn't ahead of the pack on anything and that is a shame.

How is the skiing at MSS? 1st time I've ever heard of it and looked it up tonight based on this thread. I've never skied in Eastern Canada and really only know about the major mountains due to reading skiing rags.

MSS is the first major ski area when you're heading north in the Laurentians, something like 40 miles North of Montreal. MSSI own Avila, Olympia, Gabriel and Morin Heights within the same valley plus Edelweiss near Ottawa. They used to own Jay Peak also. When I lived in Montreal, I would prefer to drive to K or SB in the Spring than ski MSS. It doesn't compare in term of skiing to the big ski areas with 2000'+, but it is skiing. It's skier-visits have been constantly above 1 million.

 

[AdironRider]

I could fly to the alps and ski year round as well.

Want to talk about grasping at straws, lets pull some podunk hill barely anyone from the Northeast United States goes to to prove my point.

If I need a passport and a full week to go there, Im not counting it. Thats a full days drive just to get up there from anywhere besides Burlington. Ill pass.

 

[oakapple]

I used MSS as an example as their season was the longest in the East last season. What about Jay Peak's season? It closed two weeks after Killington last season, they possibly would have had a longer season than K. And Sunday River for a few years might have had longer season? What about the Boyne Pass holders, the Loaf-River combo has the longest season, wouldn't it? What advantage that K has in 2012?

I love the marketing spin...well it doesn't count, they are not big enough, not the same market, etc. It wasn't factor before, because they were the only game in town. Now K isn't ahead of the pack on anything and that is a shame.

My arguments, whether right or wrong, aren't marketing spin. I don't work for Killington, and it's not my home mountain. I don't carry the water for them.

I am simply pointing out that there are probably very few people for whom "last to close" is going to determine their preferred ski area. Once you get past April, it is a factoid of comparatively little economic importance.

I don't think you've told us when MSS opened last year, but I am reasonably certain that Jay Peak's extra two weeks at the end of the season were not sufficient to overcome the extra time at the beginning of the season when K was open, but Jay was not. To the extent season length matters at all, that would not have been sufficient to give Jay Peak the preference over Killington. You could prefer Jay for other reasons...but not that one.

 

[MadPatSki]

If I need a passport and a full week to go there, Im not counting it. Thats a full days drive just to get up there from anywhere besides Burlington. Ill pass.

Using MSS as an example. What about Jay, Sugarloaf, Sunday River...stating that K has the longest season. If they have (I'm not even sure about it), it's by a narrow margin.

Jay lasted an extra two weeks...did they open more than two weeks after K?
Loaf-River combine on the same pass...was the season longer?

The fact of the matter is, if you go back to the 1980s and 1990s, they wouldn't even be a question about it. If I would live in Boston, why would I buy a pass at K instead of the Boyne (Loaf-River) pass? Before K was the only game in town, now it no longer stands out.

 

[bobbutts]

My arguments, whether right or wrong, aren't marketing spin. I don't work for Killington, and it's not my home mountain. I don't carry the water for them.

I am simply pointing out that there are probably very few people for whom "last to close" is going to determine their preferred ski area. Once you get past April, it is a factoid of comparatively little economic importance.

I don't think you've told us when MSS opened last year, but I am reasonably certain that Jay Peak's extra two weeks at the end of the season were not sufficient to overcome the extra time at the beginning of the season when K was open, but Jay was not. To the extent season length matters at all, that would not have been sufficient to give Jay Peak the preference over Killington. You could prefer Jay for other reasons...but not that one.

IMO pushing the early season isn't so good but late season is great.
I don't think you can define how other people reach their preferences, it's totally a personal thing and often irrational or hard to define.

 

[MadPatSki]

I am simply pointing out that there are probably very few people for whom "last to close" is going to determine their preferred ski area. Once you get past April, it is a factoid of comparatively little economic importance.

Agree for the general masses, but less so for season passes.

I don't think you've told us when MSS opened last year, but I am reasonably certain that Jay Peak's extra two weeks at the end of the season were not sufficient to overcome the extra time at the beginning of the season when K was open, but Jay was not. To the extent season length matters at all, that would not have been sufficient to give Jay Peak the preference over Killington. You could prefer Jay for other reasons...but not that one.

Maybe about Jay, not sure. As I said, I don't follow it opening religiously. If K opened early November that would mean that Jay would have to open by mid-November. Maybe they did, I don't care.

I agree that the length of season isn't the primary driving force for Jay sales, but people investing in season pass also look at how much skiing they be able to get on it too.

The spin is from K. Longest season, skiing from October to June used for years after it was no longer the case.

Last year ski season:

Killington last season lasted from somewhere in early November 2 to May 1 for x amount of days
Mont St-Sauveur opened from November 20 to May 22 for y amount of days..

MSS opened on October 30 this year, one day after SR and K.

 

[oakapple]

Agree for the general masses, but less so for season passes.
.....
The spin is from K. Longest season, skiing from October to June used for years after it was no longer the case.

Last year ski season:

Killington last season lasted from somewhere in early November 2 to May 1 for x amount of days
Mont St-Sauveur opened from November 20 to May 22 for y amount of days..

Well, the loss of June has not harmed Killington, because nobody in the East is staying open in June any more.

As I said upthread, it is hard to believe that any significant number of people are actually in a position (geographically) to make a season pass choice between Killington and Mont St-Saveur. They are too far apart, never minding all of the other differences between them.

If we made you manager of Killington for a day, you would not be saying (assuming you are competent): "Holy shit, we're in trouble. Mont St-Saveur is open 3 weeks later than we are." That is just not credible.

 

[MadPatSki]

Well, the loss of June has not harmed Killington, because nobody in the East is staying open in June any more.

As I said upthread, it is hard to believe that any significant number of people are actually in a position (geographically) to make a season pass choice between Killington and Mont St-Saveur. They are too far apart, never minding all of the other differences between them.

If we made you manager of Killington for a day, you would not be saying (assuming you are competent): "Holy shit, we're in trouble. Mont St-Saveur is open 3 weeks later than we are." That is just not credible.

I replied with a few areas, but you kept focusing at MSS. K used to be the only game in town, period. Now a hand full of ski resorts/pass options have a season as long if not longer.

Not, no one is open in June, but it didn't stop them to claim it for years, even after it was no longer a fact. Masses aren't affected. People that looks to by passes and people that bought around Killington might have a different take in investing a place that is no longer heads above the rest on many factors. I can understand why some would be really pissed about them, I would be to if I had bought a place and what K cut down in operations and still spinning it.

 

[JimG.]

Well, you forgot that they lost at least 100,000 skier visits. Ooops.

Are you sure that the drop is due solely to the new management?

I seem to remember that ASC had a few debt issues, no?

Business is business. The strong survive. K doesn't seem so bad off to a casual observer like me.

 

[JimG.]

I replied with a few areas, but you kept focusing at MSS. K used to be the only game in town, period. Now a hand full of ski resorts/pass options have a season as long if not longer.

Not, no one is open in June, but it didn't stop them to claim it for years, even after it was no longer a fact. Masses aren't affected. People that looks to by passes and people that bought around Killington might have a different take in investing a place that is no longer heads above the rest on many factors. I can understand why some would be really pissed about them, I would be to if I had bought a place and what K cut down in operations and still spinning it.

Imagine how they would feel if it closed down completely.

 

[Ski the Moguls]

Imagine how they would feel if it closed down completely.

No one wants Killington to purposely lose money staying open longer. We think that it should be very easy for them to make money by staying open longer. Spinning the Superstar lift and leaving a base lodge (or the nice, new umbrella bars) open can't cost all that much. And they would have the market almost all to themselves -- just like in November. Day ticket sales, next year season pass sales, food and beverage sales . . . seems like a no brainer to a lot of us. Hence the anger at the early closings.

 

[AdironRider]

No one wants Killington to purposely lose money staying open longer. We think that it should be very easy for them to make money by staying open longer. Spinning the Superstar lift and leaving a base lodge (or the nice, new umbrella bars) open can't cost all that much. And they would have the market almost all to themselves -- just like in November. Day ticket sales, next year season pass sales, food and beverage sales . . . seems like a no brainer to a lot of us. Hence the anger at the early closings.

And you would be wrong. If it were so easy as you claim, dont you think they would be doing it?

Past performance does not guarantee future results. The market has changed drastically in the last 20 years, so quit trying to bring that argument up.

In what other industry do they take baselines from the 80's? None. Why should it apply for Killington?

 

[JimG.]

No one wants Killington to purposely lose money staying open longer. We think that it should be very easy for them to make money by staying open longer. Spinning the Superstar lift and leaving a base lodge (or the nice, new umbrella bars) open can't cost all that much. And they would have the market almost all to themselves -- just like in November. Day ticket sales, next year season pass sales, food and beverage sales . . . seems like a no brainer to a lot of us. Hence the anger at the early closings.

I would be there with you until the bitter end.

I remember the long seasons too. Used to be I would go there early and late season every year a few weekends at least.

But I'm not sure I consider it a no brainer. And I'm not saying your wrong. There is a ton of passion here and I would NEVER minimize that. Look at the length of these threads about K. And I think all the comments here do Killington a tremendous service even if they disagree.

I would question whether any other ski area in the East gets this much useful feedback from daily users of all kinds from any source, including here.

 

[skiur]

even at the end of ASC years, Killington itself turned a profit each year, it was just that so many other ASC resorts were losing money, and most any profit that was being made was sent out west to the canyons.