Burke Mtn sold to Jay Peak

[from_the_NEK]

I can't see KT ever moving to Burke Mtn or somehow being absorbed by Burke and its new owner. The relationship just needs to remain mutually beneficial. Kingdom Trails is a not-for-profit entity. Remember that the vast majority of the Kingdom Trails are on private land. If KT gets rolled into a for profit resort company, I have a feeling a lot of property owers are either going to want something (i.e. $$) for allowing use of their property, or they will cut off access. If that happens goodbye Kingdom Trails.
What needs to happen is some better traffic control in East Burke village. There needs to be an actual cross walk put in from the KT's walkway across to East Burke Sports/East Burke Market. Improving signage on the road and for the people on bikes would help too. Getting the office out of the village would help as well. If they ever get the chance to buy the Algonquin Lodge, I think that would make a great spot.

 

[thetrailboss]

Interesting short article from the BFP on the KT:

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/...dom-gets-financial-boost-from-mountain-bikers

 

[deadheadskier]

As a long time follower and player at Burke it always amuses me that the "too far" thing continues - Burke is really no further than most other ski areas if you consider that many are 30-50 minutes away once you leave I-91 and one post suggests that Burke needs more amenities and then,in the same post, hopes Burke maintains its un-mcdonaldized feel. I have said this here before: Burke's biggest asset is what it isn't. Could it use a few upgrades (specifically on-mountain beds, as in a hotel) - yes, but golf courses and swimming pools in an area saturated with lakes and ponds and golf courses of every $$ range - no! I always remind people who come here/move here and then start looking for the crap they left behind that there is a reason they were attracted to the area in the first place.............................

To those who ski Burke, yes absolutely. To those who own it and try to get by with only 60 - 90K skier visits in a season? Probably not.

I'd have to imagine Stenger wants to grow Burke into a 150K visit area at minimum. It's going to take more than a hotel and improved marketing to hit that number.

 

[thetrailboss]

Re: KT

I don't think that Burke/JPR can "buy" Kingdom Trails. I was agreeing with TOTB that having Burke host or lease/give space to a new KT Headquarters might be a good thing for the mountain and for the town.

And agree that Burke can't be just a ski area. Right now they are growing their off-season business with the biking. But I just don't see a golf course making it for them. I think getting some on-mountain lodging, improving the snowmaking, and increasing marketing will make the difference. It is a delicate balance of keeping what is special without ruining it in the name of progress. But it is true that as it is there is just not enough business.

 

[kingdom-tele]

so, hopefully not to derail this anymore, maybe a new topic, but it keeps coming up about progress, business growth, sustainability, etc as the means to the end. its a sentiment that is obviously strong and has accountability in history. talking to our local CSA owner this weekend we had the same discussion with regards to the local construction, power lines to supply JPR, installation of proper conduits for the lowell wind project, etc, creating havoc we don't necessarily want, then had a new adventure ride yesterday through this part of the kingdom with a good friend, and it came up again, but in the context of how lucky we feel to have a place you can ride 40+ miles of dirt roads with views of minimal sign of man's "growth", questionable road conditions, a whitetail or two, a couple pleasant conversations with homeowners diligently working their land, you get the picture. While it remains to be seen what JPR does with Burke, and recognizing that the employees of Burke need sustainability I only ask the following. Does everything need to be bigger to be sustainable? Are there any places left that have topped out sort of speak in their vision. Someone here said it a while ago and it struck me, J has become a "resort", which I have my own issues with, but I live here, so I don't necessarily need a "resort", and we had Burke to spend our weekend teaching my child to ski without the rat race of J. I know that sounds ridiculous to anyone who doesn't live here, as J is probably far from a rat race from your perspective, but for many of us it has become just that. It is nice to have a quite ski "hill", not a resort atmosphere, to fall back on, with prices that were representative of the local community

Has the notion of simplifying instead of aquiring, developing, and attracting the horde been lost? What the hell is sustainable,150K/year, 200K, 300K, 400K. 50K

 

[deadheadskier]

I think an example of a ski area that has maintained it's character well through growth is Smuggler's Notch. Yes, they have a water park and a pretty extensive village, but it doesn't feel blown up and overdone.

 

[deadheadskier]

so, hopefully not to derail this anymore, maybe a new topic, but it keeps coming up about progress, business growth, sustainability, etc as the means to the end. its a sentiment that is obviously strong and has accountability in history. talking to our local CSA owner this weekend we had the same discussion with regards to the local construction, power lines to supply JPR, installation of proper conduits for the lowell wind project, etc, creating havoc we don't necessarily want, then had a new adventure ride yesterday through this part of the kingdom with a good friend, and it came up again, but in the context of how lucky we feel to have a place you can ride 40+ miles of dirt roads with views of minimal sign of man's "growth", questionable road conditions, a whitetail or two, a couple pleasant conversations with homeowners diligently working their land, you get the picture. While it remains to be seen what JPR does with Burke, and recognizing that the employees of Burke need sustainability I only ask the following. Does everything need to be bigger to be sustainable? Are there any places left that have topped out sort of speak in their vision. Someone here said it a while ago and it struck me, J has become a "resort", which I have my own issues with, but I live here, so I don't necessarily need a "resort", and we had Burke to spend our weekend teaching my child to ski without the rat race of J. I know that sounds ridiculous to anyone who doesn't live here, as J is probably far from a rat race from your perspective, but for many of us it has become just that. It is nice to have a quite ski "hill", not a resort atmosphere, to fall back on, with prices that were representative of the local community

Has the notion of simplifying instead of aquiring, developing, and attracting the horde been lost?

150K/year. why not 200K, 300K, 400K.

I don't think you can "simplify" a 250 acre ski area with 2 HSQs and be economically sustainable when only 60K people visit your mountain during a bad year and 90K during an exceptional year.

 

[kingdom-tele]

why not?

seriously. I am not a business person. My field has having its share of adjustments. Recognizing we will likely never be the ultra rich but a service to our community that remains sustainable and accessible.

 

[Nick]

FYI. I am running the Challenge again for 2012/13 and just reached out to Steve Wright to see if we can get him to participate this year again. I imagine we can put together quite a list of questions about the continued growth / expansion of Jay Peak.

 

[deadheadskier]

why not?

seriously. I am not a business person. My field has having its share of adjustments. Recognizing we will likely never be the ultra rich but a service to our community that remains sustainable and accessible.

Because HSQs are expensive to install and operate and 250 acres of terrain is expensive to maintain.

Great that money isn't the motivating factor of your business if that's what makes you happy. Nothing wrong with money being the motivating factor for other business owners though.

 

[St. Bear]

Has the notion of simplifying instead of aquiring, developing, and attracting the horde been lost? What the hell is sustainable,150K/year, 200K, 300K, 400K. 50K

Depends on the dollars per visit. If visitors are spending $$$ in the hotel, restaurants, water-park and golf course, then fewer visits would be sustainable. If not, then it would require more visitors per year.

As noted earlier in this thread, when a place like Burke has repeatedly gone in and out of business over the course of the previous decade, I don't see how investment and growth can be viewed as anything but a good thing.

 

[kingdom-tele]

for clarity DHS, not trying to imply money is the issue, to each his own. its at what cost to the nature of something

60K x say $40 = not enough?

where can fat be trimmed instead of compiled to make operating margins healthy for sustainability instead of having to spend millions to cater to clientel that want "resort" ammenities

I have to assume that the burke history of chewing through investors can be somewhat attributable to overzealous expectations amongst other parameters

 

[deadheadskier]

f
60K x say $40 = not enough?

That's $2.4M from lift ticket revenue, which clearly isn't enough with how often Burke has gone under. That was before adding fancy lifts that cost several million dollars.

 

[from_the_NEK]

Re: KT

I don't think that Burke/JPR can "buy" Kingdom Trails. I was agreeing with TOTB that having Burke host or lease/give space to a new KT Headquarters might be a good thing for the mountain and for the town.
.

I don't believe it is actually purchasable either. However, completely moving the main office out of East Burke Village up to the mtn would not be good for down town East Burke.
The office is currently roughly central to the trail system. Bikers can either go up Darling Hill or up Burke and end their day with a long downhill all the way to the village. Another drawback for having the main office at the mountain is that side of the trail system is open for a month or so less on each end of the season due to weather and ski resort operations.
This is why I brought up the Algonquin Lodge as being a good location for the office. It is on the edge of the village, but close enough that the bikers would still visit the businesses in town. More biker parking could be also be developed there (and right now there are issues with bikers parking at businesses in town).
First things first. Put in a CLEARLY marked crosswalk!

 

[the original trailboss]

crosswalks

One of the issues with a crosswalk in East Burke (other than the fact that the speed and volume of traffic there would lead to ignoring it) is that setbacks on each side of the crosswalk would eliminate parking in front of businesses (such as the Northeast Kingdom Country Store). It has been looked at a few times in the past ten years. Moving KT outside of the village would be a good thing, not a bad thing and would benefit Burke and the bikers. Route 114 through East Burke was a problem before KT came along and now it can be dangerous,particularly on the weekends, and, as I mentioned earlier, the high volume of cars and bikers will ultimately lead to someone getting hurt or worse there and nobody wants or needs that (lots of bad publicity,lawsuits,etc).

 

[from_the_NEK]

for clarity DHS, not trying to imply money is the issue, to each his own. its at what cost to the nature of something

60K x say $40 = not enough?

where can fat be trimmed instead of compiled to make operating margins healthy for sustainability instead of having to spend millions to cater to clientel that want "resort" ammenities

I have to assume that the burke history of chewing through investors can be somewhat attributable to overzealous expectations amongst other parameters

I think I'm somewhere in between here,

I don't know that there was a lot of fat to be trimmed at Burke. Back in 2000 when it was purchased by the small group of BMA organized investors, they didn't have much of an operating budget. They just wanted to keep it open. Ginn came in added a lot of fat (e.g. 2 greeters at the bottom of the main lodge stairs and two more at the top :roll: ). That fat got trimmed when Ginn went bankrupt. The mountain has been running in the red. To get into the black, I would give my non-binding hack estimate to be 100,000 skier visits (avg) and 3,000 lift served MTB visits. To do that, they need the hotel, an improved mid-lodge, and a modest amount of snow making improvements. These pieces combined with the ability of tandem marketing with Jay makes keeping the mountain out of the red a very attainable goal without overrunning/overglitzing the place.

 

[thetrailboss]

That's $2.4M from lift ticket revenue, which clearly isn't enough with how often Burke has gone under. That was before adding fancy lifts that cost several million dollars.

+ 1.

You have to pay for lifts, grooming, snowmaking, LABOR, ELECTRICITY, insurance, taxes, diesel for equipment, snowmobiles, maintenance of lifts, buildings, and trails, marketing, and paying for stock to sell in shops. As said, $2.4 is just not enough to do it all.

 

[thetrailboss]

I would think that they would need somewhere between 100-150,000 to make it somewhat sustainable. Even 150k may not do it. I believe that Sugarbush combined usually runs around 450k visits, with Mount Ellen garnering about 150k of those visits and SB claims that Mount Ellen doesn't make money.

 

[thetrailboss]

One of the issues with a crosswalk in East Burke (other than the fact that the speed and volume of traffic there would lead to ignoring it) is that setbacks on each side of the crosswalk would eliminate parking in front of businesses (such as the Northeast Kingdom Country Store). It has been looked at a few times in the past ten years. Moving KT outside of the village would be a good thing, not a bad thing and would benefit Burke and the bikers. Route 114 through East Burke was a problem before KT came along and now it can be dangerous,particularly on the weekends, and, as I mentioned earlier, the high volume of cars and bikers will ultimately lead to someone getting hurt or worse there and nobody wants or needs that (lots of bad publicity,lawsuits,etc).

Lawsuits are not always a bad thing

And through in a few very fast truckers and you have a mess in EB village.

Hey from_the_nek--remind me where Algonquin Lodge is.

 

[kingdom-tele]

from what I am reading though NEK overglitz is the new black and the only way to be profitable

TB seems like you could ditch a couple of things from that list and still have a nice day skiing. I am out of the loop. Just an opinion.