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Ice at IceFace explained by science

St. Jerry

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So was talking with a local and they believe that the 100 sq miles of flat land to the east of the mountain creates a wind vortex that gets further compounded as it hits the mountain and funnels in the area between Little Whiteface and the Summit.
 

Cornhead

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And this happens often after big dumps, what a cock tease of a mountain WF can be! I've seen trails closed after a foot plus because the wind scoured it down to ice. Blown into the trees, where it belongs! The first hundred yards of Skyward is usually sheer ice, then it gets good where the snow stays.

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deadheadskier

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Sugarloaf has similar issues up top. All of the "extensions" - Nitro, Gondi, Narrow Gauge etc., are often wind blasted down to ice.

Not much you can do with mountains that have that kind of exposure.
 

joshua segal

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Sugarloaf has similar issues up top. All of the "extensions" - Nitro, Gondi, Narrow Gauge etc., are often wind blasted down to ice.

Not much you can do with mountains that have that kind of exposure.
I would think that snowmaking could do a good job of coating these surfaces. I think they have snowmaking at the top of Whiteface. Is there snowmaking now in the snowfields of Sugarloaf?
 
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deadheadskier

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Sugarloaf HAMMERS Nitro Ext. and Gondi Line with snowmaking. The surface will be fine if the wind isn't howling, which is rare up there. In typical conditions, that wind scours whatever top layer of snow there is off to the hardpack/ice base below it. It will turn to boiler plate even in the absence of skiers often by the time they spin the lifts.

I've literally seen them blow snow on Upper Gondi all afternoon and enjoyed skiing the whales, watched them groom it at night, race to get up there in the morning to get first tracks on what I think will be perfect cord only to find that the over night winds have scoured it down to boiler plate.
 

joshua segal

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Sugarloaf HAMMERS Nitro Ext. and Gondi Line with snowmaking. The surface will be fine if the wind isn't howling, which is rare up there. In typical conditions, that wind scours whatever top layer of snow there is off to the hardpack/ice base below it. It will turn to boiler plate even in the absence of skiers often by the time they spin the lifts.

I've literally seen them blow snow on Upper Gondi all afternoon and enjoyed skiing the whales, watched them groom it at night, race to get up there in the morning to get first tracks on what I think will be perfect cord only to find that the over night winds have scoured it down to boiler plate.
Interesting. I would have thought that "styrofoam texture snow" that the newer guns can produce would hold up to the wind.
 

Cornhead

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Interesting. I would have thought that "styrofoam texture snow" that the newer guns can produce would hold up to the wind.

Funny you mention "styrofoam textured snow", we skied Elk a couple years ago, they blew on top of a bump run. I've never experienced anything like it before. If you couldn't ski those bumps, you couldn't ski any bumps, it was like styrofoam, and you could edge anywhere on the bump, cool sensation. The bump equivalent of groomers.

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doublediamond

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Can't the put up snow fences in the bad sections when there's a dumping and high winds? I know Lake Louise puts fences up to hold snow to open natural trails up top.
 

joshua segal

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Can't the put up snow fences in the bad sections when there's a dumping and high winds? I know Lake Louise puts fences up to hold snow to open natural trails up top.
Great question. I remember snow fences being used routinely in the pre-snowmaking era. I suspect that they work best with crosswinds. If the prevailing wind is up/downhill, they probably wouldn't work so well, (but I am guessing).
 

Breakout12

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I finally made it to Whiteface last year, for the first time ever. It was the first big mountain that I heard of over 30 years ago, and it’s always been a goal to ski there. I must say, it was a real disappointment due to the conditions. It was mid March 2014. There was heavy snow in Lake Placid the night before we skied, and it was even snowing when we arrived at the mountain. We went straight to the summit and took Paron’s Run, and man, it was nothing but crust! Same with Little Whiteface, and the Wilmington Trail. Lot’s of crust accented by a liberal smattering of boilerplate! It was difficult to get an edge. We were scraping everywhere. Whiteface chewed us up and spit us out in 3 hours. In contrast, 2 weeks prior, we had skied Gore for two full days, and could have done more. The conditions at Gore were a dream. I knew WF’s reputation going in, but it was a letdown to realize that the conditions we encountered are probably considered good for WF. It’ll be hard to justify going back. It’s a shame that Lake Placid isn’t connected to a ski area with consistently better conditions.
 

abc

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So was talking with a local and they believe that the 100 sq miles of flat land to the east of the mountain creates a wind vortex that gets further compounded as it hits the mountain and funnels in the area between Little Whiteface and the Summit.
That's not science.
Correct title should have been "Ice at Iceface explained by a local". The "science" part is a bit of a stretch.

It's may not be much of an explanation. But for anyone who doesn't know Whiteface's reputation, they get another chance to read about it before they decide to go there.
 

mriceyman

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I have had many good days at WF.. Def can get sketchy tho


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AdironRider

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I finally made it to Whiteface last year, for the first time ever. It was the first big mountain that I heard of over 30 years ago, and it’s always been a goal to ski there. I must say, it was a real disappointment due to the conditions. It was mid March 2014. There was heavy snow in Lake Placid the night before we skied, and it was even snowing when we arrived at the mountain. We went straight to the summit and took Paron’s Run, and man, it was nothing but crust! Same with Little Whiteface, and the Wilmington Trail. Lot’s of crust accented by a liberal smattering of boilerplate! It was difficult to get an edge. We were scraping everywhere. Whiteface chewed us up and spit us out in 3 hours. In contrast, 2 weeks prior, we had skied Gore for two full days, and could have done more. The conditions at Gore were a dream. I knew WF’s reputation going in, but it was a letdown to realize that the conditions we encountered are probably considered good for WF. It’ll be hard to justify going back. It’s a shame that Lake Placid isn’t connected to a ski area with consistently better conditions.

Oh man, you mean the snow was completely different at two different ski areas, almost 100 miles apart, weeks apart. Color me shocked.

Whiteface is no worse than Jay for wind scoured runs. Unlike Jay, Whiteface doesn't put every single possible stash on the map.
 

abc

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Oh man, you mean the snow was completely different at two different ski areas, almost 100 miles apart, weeks apart. Color me shocked.

.
I'm Not shocked that a mountain 100 mi south on a day not snowing has better condition than Whiteface the day after a storm
 

Breakout12

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“Oh man, you mean the snow was completely different at two different ski areas, almost 100 miles apart, weeks apart. Color me shocked.”

Sure, that’s obvious, I was just providing a frame of reference. I was more disturbed by the fact that WF had the worst conditions I’ve ever encountered, and they were probably considered average of even good for WF. It was also a comment on the grooming. It seemed almost non-existent. There were definitely parts of WF that could have been as good as Gore had it been groomed. That, and I am confirming for any doubters out there that yes, WF’s reputation is, in fact, well earned. Weather that will allow other areas to have fantastic conditions somehow eludes WF.

My comments were also partly to commiserate with sentiments like these:

“And this happens often after big dumps, what a cock tease of a mountain WF can be! I've seen trails closed after a foot plus because the wind scoured it down to ice. Blown into the trees, where it belongs! The first hundred yards of Skyward is usually sheer ice, then it gets good where the snow stays.”

“I've literally seen them blow snow on Upper Gondi all afternoon and enjoyed skiing the whales, watched them groom it at night, race to get up there in the morning to get first tracks on what I think will be perfect cord only to find that the over night winds have scoured it down to boiler plate.” (I know he isn’t talking about WF)
 

Scruffy

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“Oh man, you mean the snow was completely different at two different ski areas, almost 100 miles apart, weeks apart. Color me shocked.”

Sure, that’s obvious, I was just providing a frame of reference. I was more disturbed by the fact that WF had the worst conditions I’ve ever encountered, and they were probably considered average of even good for WF. It was also a comment on the grooming. It seemed almost non-existent. There were definitely parts of WF that could have been as good as Gore had it been groomed. That, and I am confirming for any doubters out there that yes, WF’s reputation is, in fact, well earned. Weather that will allow other areas to have fantastic conditions somehow eludes WF.

My comments were also partly to commiserate with sentiments like these:

“And this happens often after big dumps, what a cock tease of a mountain WF can be! I've seen trails closed after a foot plus because the wind scoured it down to ice. Blown into the trees, where it belongs! The first hundred yards of Skyward is usually sheer ice, then it gets good where the snow stays.”

“I've literally seen them blow snow on Upper Gondi all afternoon and enjoyed skiing the whales, watched them groom it at night, race to get up there in the morning to get first tracks on what I think will be perfect cord only to find that the over night winds have scoured it down to boiler plate.” (I know he isn’t talking about WF)

Don't worry Breakout, some peeps are just inherently unhappy. The pointless need to point out that you somehow said something lame or obvious somehow fills the hollow voids in their unfulfilled lives.
 
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