Grooming

[xlr8r]

This past weekend I spent 2 days at Killington (Sat and Sun) and one day at Okemo (Mon). Overall I thought the grooming at Killington was very good, the windswept 2" that fell overnight Saturday certainly helped. Of course certain trails got scraped down to hardpack by afternoon, but I did not notice any boilerplate exposed on snowmaking trails. Using my Max Pass it seemed advantageous to ski somewhere else on Monday so I went to Okemo expecting a fun day of ripping groomers. If the nor'easter had brought more snow I would have gone to Pico, but Pico is only about 50% open, so I'll wait until Pico is operating 100%.

As everyone here I'm sure is familiar with, the typical complaints about Okemo are that it lacks challenge and character, all trails look and ski exactly alike, which is certainly true. But Okemo is usually ranked as being the best at grooming, in my opinion the grooming Monday was terrible. They obviously did not till very deep, and probably did a quick midweek groom without the care they would put into a weekend groom. Everything was chatteroy first thing in the morning with badly overlapped grooming passes creating ridges down the trails. So I moved to south face expecting the sun there to at least soften up the snow, only instead south face was covered in soft death cookies. By afternoon most of the major trails started to get exposed boilerplate. And to top it all off the Okemo clientele (that certainly ski in a bubble) were saying on the lift rides that the conditions were excellent and the best of the season.

I was shocked at how bad the snow was considering Okemo claimed to get more snow from the nor'easter than Killington, and both got about 2" Saturday night. So for the grooming experts, is this entirely weather and crowd based and Okemo probably did as best they could due to the traffic over the week. Did they not let the snowmaking drain, which caused the boilerplate. Or was this just Okemo using there grooming reputation as an opportunity to now be cheap with the grooming. The trails at Killington were much more crowded and usually steeper, but the grooming held up.

Also in general are there any mountains that are known for using different procedures and/or tactics with their grooming? Does the grooming effort really decrease midweek? This thread can just be a general discussion of what makes good grooming vs bad grooming.

 

[bdfreetuna]

Killington gets more snow and higher elevation keeps it colder. Less melt/refreeze. Less sun exposure on several of the faces as well.

While both resorts have been dealt a similar mixed hand so far this season I'm not surprised to hear Killington has held up better to this point. Also, don't make the mistake of underrating Killington in the grooming department. They are known to bring things back to skiable condition in short order after rain/freeze events and the like.

One other thing: Killington appears to resurface their trails more often with snowmaking as opposed to Okemo which seems to be more of make snow to open a trail and move on to the next.

 

[drjeff]

You may be on to something with the not letting fresh snowmaking drain before grooming it out. If you remember, the afternoon of Dec 26th into the mid day of the 27th, there was a freezing rain to rain event, with a brief warm up that hit, and solidified everything ahead of Thursday's storm.

I'm sure that Okemo went into full recovery mode when they got the temps back on the 27th and tried to essentially "top dress" as much terrain as possible with some fresh manmade ahead of the masses who were arriving. A quick top dressing of some likely semi wet manmade snow to help it bond to the post rain//warm/freeze up, hit with a tiller can indeed lead to some death cookies, which I'm guessing their mountain ops folks were expecting to be covered up by the new snow. When that storm didn't quite deliver the full amount expected to central VT, combined with the HUGE crowds that showed up, especially on Friday and then the winds as well. Not exactly a recipe to keep a surface in excellent shape for an extended period of time.

I know that I was at Stratton on Friday with my kids for a race. Even the morning after the storm, there was plenty of bulletproof snow to be found.

Managing a snow pack via snowmaking and grooming is truly a challenging art form, made even more challenging with the often rapid swings in temperatures and various types of precipitation that we tend to get on the East Coast. It's far more complicated than just run a cat with the blade in front to smooth out any bumps and the tiller in back running to lay down some cord. I fully respect, and don't envy the job of a groomer on many days!!

 

[Jully]

I'd be curious to know how midweek grooming operations vary at some resorts compared to weekend ops, if there is any variation at all. However, I doubt that Okemo would groom any less fervently for Monday Jan 2, a federal holiday this year, than they would any other weekend day.

 

[cdskier]

Sugarbush seems to groom less trails mid-week, but I don't know that they necessarily do anything differently with the trails that they do groom. The grooming job itself never seems substantially different on a weekday vs weekend. The biggest factor in conditions is "what recently happened with the weather". I will say it often seems Mt Ellen has better grooming than LP, but that could also just be due to less people skiing at ME so the cord holds up longer.

 

[JimG.]

Grooming sucks period.

 

[dlague]

The tough situation is the weather has been yoyoing lately. With rain earlier in the week with it the to no real opportunity to make snow, the surfaces are getting soaked and it has nothing to do with the ski areas not letting the snow drain - it is mother nature that is freezing it. Once that happens then resorts scramble to touch up all open terrain and the bigger they are and the more open terrain the more time it takes. Touching up trails take a lot of time, when you consider the time it took to open existing terrain. Plus it actually has been slightly warmer at Killington than at Okemo so Killington more than likely had softer conditions where Okemo rewrote. Not exactly apple to apples.

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[Tin]

Grooming sucks period.

After a base is in place, put them away.

 

[xlr8r]

I just found it very surprising that the best they could do was chatteroy over most of the mountain which got scraped down to boilerplate, and developing death cookies on the rest of the trails. Considering it had been a week since the last thaw rain freeze event, and they had gotten about a foot of snow in the meantime. If this was 2 or 3 days after a rain freeze event, I would totally understand and expect these types of conditions. But they had recent fresh snow and a week of cold temps with no rain. To me it seemed like they weren't trying very hard, and I'm curious if anyone with inside info knows if mountains cheap it out sometimes when it comes to grooming.

 

[thetrailboss]

So I am not a groomer, but I have learned a lot over the years and have learned a lot in talking with folks in mountain ops like BushMogulMaster. There are a lot of variables and factors that impact the skiing surfaces. As you described it, there are a few things that might be at play at Okemo. First, as you said, a thaw in which groomers got onto the snow before it set up. Mountains do try to avoid this....particularly in the spring. In fact, a lot of mountain ops will have groomers sit and wait until the temps drop below freezing before going to work.

A second consideration is the snow itself and the water content. I commented once to BMM how the snowmaking at Mount Ellen was softer and not as icy as Lincoln Peak and asked if it was due to lower traffic. He said no. The difference? Snow made at LP has to endure more thaws and freezes and last into spring. So they blow a wetter more durable snow than say ME that has to get through March. I would imagine that Okemo intends to blow snow that will last and perhaps had more water in it and is firmer or icier.

A last consideration is, as you said, a quick groom that was not as deep nor as effective in redistributing snow.

Without being there, I'd guess that you had a thaw and perhaps real wet base snow that just set up.

 

[SIKSKIER]

This is NE.You could hardly not groom anything after the base is down.Get real.Love to see how much you like that surface after a freeze thaw that leaves frozen ruts.Certainly trails can get overgroomed and create a bad surface but NE for the most part needs grooming.Hell even MRG does some needed grooming.

 

[xlr8r]

A second consideration is the snow itself and the water content. I commented once to BMM how the snowmaking at Mount Ellen was softer and not as icy as Lincoln Peak and asked if it was due to lower traffic. He said no. The difference? Snow made at LP has to endure more thaws and freezes and last into spring. So they blow a wetter more durable snow than say ME that has to get through March. I would imagine that Okemo intends to blow snow that will last and perhaps had more water in it and is firmer or icier.

That is interesting, did not know that Sugarbush purposely has different snowmaking quality at each mountain for different purposes.

 

[dlague]

This is NE.You could hardly not groom anything after the base is down.Get real.Love to see how much you like that surface after a freeze thaw that leaves frozen ruts.Certainly trails can get overgroomed and create a bad surface but NE for the most part needs grooming.Hell even MRG does some needed grooming.

100% right on! I was at Loveland after a warm day and a freeze that night and the upper mountain (no grooming) areas were tough to ski - very rough surface.

That is interesting, did not know that Sugarbush purposely has different snowmaking quality at each mountain for different purposes.

Many ski areas especially those that stay late will lay down a wet snow so that it freezes. Typically on trails that they traditionally keep open well into April or May in some cases. It is also done to combat early season thaws. Tough part of refreezes are the resorts capabilities to resurface in a timely manner and also get groomers out in time as well. Obviously resurfacing via snowmaking and grooming can not happen at the same time.

A fiend of ours who grooms for Jimminy Peak posted about putting the cats away because it was too warm last week - the right thing to do!

 

[Abubob]

Grooming IMHO is as much science as it is art. So a large part is based on the experience and availability of the grooming crew, equipment and payroll. I could see a groomer saying something like I can't wait until after midnight to groom because I have another job to get to or whatever. They groom when they groom - so unfortunately some trails don't get the attention at just the right moment while others do.

A hypothetical situation:
Groomer sets out at 4:30 PM temps in the mid thirties after a day at almost 40.
Slope A gets a groomed before it starts to refreeze and sets up a nice chatteroy.
Slope B gets groomed as temps have dipped below 30 and is only partly frozen so it sets up firm but edgeable.
Slope C gets groomed with temps in the teens and produces the infamous death cookies.
Slope D is frozen solid by the time it get groomed and sets up a nice boilerplate.

Too many factors to consider and it's easier to groom when conditions good. Probably the worst conditions to groom are what we've seen the past few days - rain, warm temps and very little fresh snow followed by a deep freeze.

An experienced operator with enough time can do a much better job than someone with less experience and less time.

Once I skied at Jay Peak two days after it rained. Temps that day ranged from single digits to mid teens. Needless to say conditions were bullet proof everywhere except in the terrain park where experienced groomers took their time and worked things into a nice even and soft corduroy. Anyway - it was better than working. Welcome to New England.

 

[dlague]

Well I feel compeled to comment on Northeastern skiing. Those of you who have travels and skied elsewhere can attest to this. Northeastern skiing does prepare you for a lot. There are many times when you are faced with really sketchy surfaces that make you react and think quick on your feet (hopefully). Conditions, vary from fluff to cement freshies, nice pp to boilerplate, crud to death cookies. etc and that in itself changes the way terrain skis. Now we all are willing to complain when trails get scraped down to shit but that makes us better skiers. Most of us grow to accept it and deal, taking what the mountain gives us - result a hardened skier. Having move to Colorado the surfaces so far have been very consistent. While that is real nice, I feel prepared to deal with conditions that may not live up to that. I often imagine what a western skier skiing back east would think. I know of a couple people that have skied in VT and they had mixed reviews. However, most of use grew up on it and did not really know better.

Comparing how conditions were at one place vs the other is to variable. Temps, water, humidity, dryness, snowmaking, grooming etc. Every day conditions can vary greatly.

 

[xlr8r]

Look guys, you are acting like I am New England newb.

I have skied hundreds of days over the last 20 years in New England and have have gained a good understanding of what to expect each day conditions wise depending on weather. I do not need a lesson in NE weather.

I started the thread because the conditions did not line up with the weather based on my experience and understanding, making it seem as though Okemo's grooming process was at fault, not the weather. They had lots of fresh snow that week, just like every other mountain in the area and consistent cold weather since the snow had fallen. The conditions were very poor considering the recent weather.

 

[BushMogulMaster]

That is interesting, did not know that Sugarbush purposely has different snowmaking quality at each mountain for different purposes.

Keep in mind that what Trailboss is mentioning is from about about 7 years ago, when I was in mountain ops at Sugarbush, and my father was the GM at ME. We had a method to our madness at the time, which may or may not still reflect the reality there now. We've been in the Rockies since '12.


To the original point, as others have said, lots of variables. Not letting manmade leach is an all too common fatal mistake in the industry today, with its apparent obsession with instant gratification. Me? I'd rather make snow in a wide distribution (more labor, ergo more expensive, ergo not the favorite of most mountains), and still give it 48hrs to leach before touching it with a cat.

Could have been wet manmade from marginal temps, or too much water in the mixture. Could have been uncontrollable weather factors. In this instance, I'd be willing to bet it wasn't due to operator error on the grooming side (although there are plenty of things a cat operator can do to ruin perfectly soft snow!).

 

[BushMogulMaster]

And since the OP was interested in what makes good grooming vs. bad grooming, I'll share our methods at Cooper in Colorado, which are (admittedly) not directly applicable in the east, due to the thaw/freeze cycles and non-frozen-precip, which are two things that we simply don't have to deal with here. Not to mention that we're 100% natural snow. But it does provide some food for thought on the topic.

From http://skicooper.com/behind-the-scenes-grooming-and-why-coopers-snow-is-always-so-soft/

Behind the Scenes: Grooming (and Why Cooper’s Snow is Always So Soft!)

September 21, 2015 Behind-The-Scenes, Cooper Blog

by Patrick Torsell, Cooper’s Director of Marketing, IT, & Slope Maintenance (2015 CSCUSA Groomer of the Year; published 6 times by Ski Area Management Magazine on the topic of grooming)

Grooming is an interesting topic. People have really strong opinions about it. One person says you groom too much; the next says you don’t groom enough. The trail that is someone’s favorite cruiser turns out to be someone else’s favorite bump run. It’s impossible to please everyone. But it is possible to deliver consistently smooth and soft groomed trails. And that’s something we put a lot of time and energy into here at Cooper. Here’s a little behind-the-scenes view of the art and science of grooming, and our methods here at Cooper.

How Does Cooper Decide What Trails to Groom?

The daily grooming plan is developed by the mountain management team based on a variety of important factors. First, we take a few runs during the ski day to assess the conditions on both the groomed and ungroomed runs (working in the ski industry is obviously really terrible…). That gives us a first-hand idea of the actual state of the snow surface around the mountain, and at critical spots like lift mazes and ramps, terrain park, race trails, etc. Then we review the events for the following day to determine if any races, training, or other on-mountain events dictate specific grooming needs. Next, we consider anticipated ski traffic for the following day to determine which/how many main green/blue thoroughfares need to be groomed. The weather forecast is used to determine if fresh snowfall will alter the planning or timing of certain trails. Finally, we take a look at the previous night’s grooming plan to help formulate the next night’s plan.

Those are the factors that vary from day-to-day. There are other considerations that are more constant. For example, other things being equal, we try to groom at least one green run and one blue run on both sides of the mountain each night. This ensures a good variety of groomed terrain for the core skiing public. We like to add a back-side black diamond into the mix at least 3 times each week, to keep some smooth steep cruising. And, of course, we have to consider the beginner/learning terrain on EZ Street, and above the Children’s Center. We don’t groom this every night (for reasons that will be clear later in this post), but we do usually groom it for every weekend and holiday.

Taking all of these factors into account, a map is generated for the groomers highlighting the trails to be groomed, special tasks to be completed (lift work, park work, base area projects, etc.), and the timing of the tasks. Timing is particularly important. The longer the time after a trail is groomed, the harder the snow surface will become. Certain types of trails actually need to set harder, such as race trails, terrain parks, and steeper terrain, where more advanced skiers do more “damage” to the snow surface.

Those trails are assigned to the swing shift (4pm-12am) so that they have time to set up before the ski day. Other terrain, however, we want to keep as soft as possible. Beginner and intermediate runs we prefer to groom on the graveyard shift (12am-8am). That way, the surface doesn’t have too much time to set up.

So, with the plan made, it is delivered to the shop, where the groomers review it when they arrive for their shift. Each groomer is assigned approximately 40 acres to be covered during his shift. Is it possible to cover more? Sure. But at the expense of quality. And quality is more important to Cooper than quantity. We think you’d agree!

Why Is Cooper’s Snow So Soft?

For starters, Mother Nature takes good care of us! Our base is all-natural, which means it is softer. While man-made snow (found at most other resorts in Colorado) serves a very useful purpose (allowing early openings, ensuring a durable base, allowing recovery from dry/warm periods, etc.), it also creates a much harder surface. From a scientific standpoint, that’s because the water content in man-made snow is significantly higher than natural snow, making a more dense product. Additionally, the snow “crystals” formed by snowmaking are more like little frozen balls rather than snowflakes. In other words, they don’t have interlocking arms and unique shapes like real snowflakes. This, too, makes a denser snowpack, since it is the shape of natural snowflakes that make natural snow so soft and fluffy: the arms interlock, but leave space for air in the snowpack. Natural snow–with its lower water content–stays softer longer. High water content snowpack will freeze solid in particularly cold temperatures.

At Cooper, we don’t make any man-made snow. Mother Nature graces us with an average of about 260″ of natural fluffy stuff each season, and our high base elevation (10,500′) means that the snowpack remains cooler and drier, and thus lighter & softer.
And we’re here to supplement Mother Nature’s efforts as well, with our unique grooming philosophy. Unlike most other ski resorts, Cooper doesn’t believe in over-grooming trails, which results in hardpack conditions. Cooper applies industry trend-bucking grooming practices to avoid over-working the snow, meaning a softer, smooth surface. Each time a snowcat pulls a power tiller (the rear hydraulically-powered implement which processes snow by spinning an auger with sharp teeth at high RPMs in the top several inches of snowpack) over the snow, the crystals break down and form new bonds, resulting in a harder and slicker base. Cooper has established a carefully-planned grooming terrain rotation to guarantee plenty of corduroy, while ensuring that the snowpack remains as soft as possible across the mountain. This is why considering the trails that we groomed the previous night is so important in planning our grooming for the next night. At Cooper, we very rarely groom the same trail two nights in a row, and that is to keep our snow as soft as possible for YOU!

Cooper also believes in using alternative implements to the aforementioned power tiller. We use compactor bars (known as c-bars to industry insiders) whenever possible, especially in early season and in particularly snowy weather cycles. The compactor bar is just that: a metal bar, with a rubber flap and poly combs to leave a corduroy pattern in the snow. But since there is no rotational or mechanical processing of the snow, it does not have the same deleterious effect that the power tiller does. Over time, the snowpack does still harden from use, and from driving a 14,000lb machine over it. But using a non-mechanical implement substantially slows the process.

Most ski areas have fallen into the trap of believing that they must groom certain trails (with a power tiller, no less!) every single night. This is understandable in high-traffic areas where lots of skiers “damage” the surface during the course of the day, leaving cuts, bumps, and slick areas. Under those circumstances, of course the trail should be groomed. However, at Cooper, we have the distinct advantage of a low average skier density per acre. A trail that is groomed, say, on an average Tuesday, should not need to be groomed again until Friday. In fact, it shouldn’t be. As explained above, each time a trail is groomed, it gets harder and harder and harder, until a fresh fall of snow can be mixed in.

This is tough for some skiers to get used to. They’ve been conditioned by their experience at most ski areas to believe that a trail has to have fresh corduroy on it to be soft and smooth. Not true! Sometimes the softest and smoothest run might be one that was groomed several days ago! Keep that in mind as you ski around, and you might just find that, while corduroy is certainly nice to look at–and makes a satisfying “crunch” as you turn on it–it may not actually be the softest snow on the mountain.

 

[dlague]

And since the OP was interested in what makes good grooming vs. bad grooming, I'll share our methods at Cooper in Colorado, which are (admittedly) not directly applicable in the east, due to the thaw/freeze cycles and non-frozen-precip, which are two things that we simply don't have to deal with here. Not to mention that we're 100% natural snow. But it does provide some food for thought on the topic.

Good input! Hey we plan on swinging by for some runs soon maybe you will be free for a couple? Your advice was great last time we were there.

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[BushMogulMaster]

Good input! Hey we plan on swinging by for some runs soon maybe you will be free for a couple? Your advice was great last time we were there.

Sent from my SM-G930P using AlpineZone mobile app

Give me a day's notice. I'm usually there 6 days a week, unless I have meetings. Maybe I can actually get out for a few runs with you this time around!!!