2020-21 Sunday River

[deadheadskier]

I really don't understand the logic in prioritizing Jordan over Barker. People have been talking about the need to replace Barker for at least ten years. You hardly ever hear folks talking about Jordan being a problem as is.

 

[thebigo]

For those counting, Barker is down once again, went down Sunday and down today and tomorrow at a minimum. 23-24 seems so far away.......

Sunday morning was busy. I left before barker went down but the line for Locke must have been intense.

 

[Newpylong]

I really don't understand the logic in prioritizing Jordan over Barker. People have been talking about the need to replace Barker for at least ten years. You hardly ever hear folks talking about Jordan being a problem as is.

In the simplest terms, I have find there are two types of management, those that prioritize what customers want, and those that prioritize what they want. Killington is the former, and Sunday River is turning into the latter.

Killington's customers wanted a lift on Snowdon, they wanted a lift returned to South Ridge, they wanted less intersections. Killington listened and did it.

Have not heard anyone ask for a new lift at Jordan over Barker. Have not heard of anyone want a new North Peak lift, but they want to put one there. People want a HSQ on White Cap, they just want to put a conveyer. etc.

 

[drjeff]

In the simplest terms, I have find there are two types of management, those that prioritize what customers want, and those that prioritize what they want. Killington is the former, and Sunday River is turning into the latter.

Killington's customers wanted a lift on Snowdon, they wanted a lift returned to South Ridge, they wanted less intersections. Killington listened and did it.

Have not heard anyone ask for a new lift at Jordan over Barker. Have not heard of anyone want a new North Peak lift, but they want to put one there. People want a HSQ on White Cap, they just want to put a conveyer. etc.

Agree!

I suppose in say 10 years when SR is likely well into their expansion/resort transformation as they want to, the attention now to Jordan and North Peak may make sense, especially when Barker gets the current Jordan HSQ 2 seasons from now, however in the immedaite future it sure seems like the choices they're making around Barker are likely to detract from the customer experience.

I wonder if this will end up being a situation where too much attention is now being spent on the say 5 and 10 year plans (which ARE GOOD things to have without a doubt) over some more pressing, say 1 or 2 year needs??

 

[deadheadskier]

In the simplest terms, I have find there are two types of management, those that prioritize what customers want, and those that prioritize what they want. Killington is the former, and Sunday River is turning into the latter.

Killington's customers wanted a lift on Snowdon, they wanted a lift returned to South Ridge, they wanted less intersections. Killington listened and did it.

Have not heard anyone ask for a new lift at Jordan over Barker. Have not heard of anyone want a new North Peak lift, but they want to put one there. People want a HSQ on White Cap, they just want to put a conveyer. etc.

Agreed

Then there is a third category. Management that doesn't do what they want, doesn't do what the customers want and only does what the shareholders want.

Vail

 

[Razor]

They fixed the Spruce Peak lift right away after it went down a few years ago. The same urgency should apply to Barker. Arguably Barker is the most important lift at the resort.

 

[ss20]

They fixed the Spruce Peak lift right away after it went down a few years ago. The same urgency should apply to Barker. Arguably Barker is the most important lift at the resort.

To be fair I'm sure they were paid insurance $$$ to replace Spruce.

And they quarter-assed the lift removal. People trying to ski under the spruce line on the mid-section of the lift scares the shit outta me with all the jagged debris.

 

[deadheadskier]

They fixed the Spruce Peak lift right away after it went down a few years ago. The same urgency should apply to Barker. Arguably Barker is the most important lift at the resort.

Barker definitely is the most important lift on the mountain. Opens weeks before Jordan. Last lift to close. Can lap more terrain off that lift than any other lift on the mountain.

 

[Vortex]

I have a different perspective, Jordan has issues mechanically, but it is down more for Wind hold than mechanical IMO. Those that own in that area would prefer to see Jordan fixed first. Jordan is awesome and so is Oz, if you can get in and out and stay there. Plenty of Space to Expand terrain.

Barker just goes down all the time. It is hard to get parts, so quick fixes sometimes take multiple days.
Mackski can give facts and figures.

So they both needed to be done and both will happen at the same time. No one wants to hear about Real estate and dollars invested. Sunday river is a Real Estate Goldmine. So much area to expand, Terrain and Loding wise, Condo' house lots and so forth. The expansion dollars are not coming from ticket sales, they are coming from Real Estate. Not many new houses going in by Barker. No new revenue,

 

[Newpylong]

The real estate perspective makes good sense, but I think to the run of the mill (non-real estate holding) passholder it only makes the issue worse.

A lift with mechanical issues is going to replace the other lift with mechanical issues (in two years). It will not add any further capacity besides a couple hundred FPM to the line speed.

Barker is the immediate need and its replacement would effect the largest amount of riders immediately. It should be new (6?), it is a signature lift. When they replace Jordan they can reinstall that quad somewhere else like Tempest or Aurora.

 

[Razor]

Amen!!

 

[Vortex]

My point is fixing Jordan gives them potential money to Finance other things due to Real Estate advantages. Barker will not increase Revenue and I doubt many will stop buying tickets and passes, There has been no loss of business, not yet anyway, and next year it is fixed. I will give them a change to succeed before I declare doom.

I would love Barker to run, so everyone will go there and I can ski Aurora and Jordan. I am a homer, so like any upgrades. It is all about snowmaking and length of Season.

 

[machski]

The real estate perspective makes good sense, but I think to the run of the mill (non-real estate holding) passholder it only makes the issue worse.

A lift with mechanical issues is going to replace the other lift with mechanical issues (in two years). It will not add any further capacity besides a couple hundred FPM to the line speed.

Barker is the immediate need and its replacement would effect the largest amount of riders immediately. It should be new (6?), it is a signature lift. When they replace Jordan they can reinstall that quad somewhere else like Tempest or Aurora.

The main issue with Jordan is the windhods as Vortex stated. It is the first to go onto wind hold and the last to come off normally. While Jordan hotel guests can get out at times on the Jordan Double, that lift was not a brand new design and was installed as cheap as possible (thus the high, level span coming out of the Jordan load/unload side) making it also prone to windhold issues. Even with the double running, you cannot get guests back up to the hotel. This has caused resale prices at the Jordan Hotel to plummet (Summit shares resale for double to triple what Jordan does even though Jordan is measurably better in terms of quality), many guests that get hung up with mutiday windholds rate the Jordan poorly and won't return, etc. So the need to upgrade Jordan to a machine with better wind tolerance is definitely there. As there is no actual day lodge on that side of the resort, a signature heated bubble chair makes sense to allow guests a break from the elements before heading to the Peak Lodge or beyond.

As to the Jordan lift flip, I expect they will have Dopp do a huge overhaul of the current Jordan Quad before it makes its way to Barker similar to what they did with Ramcharger to Shedhorn at BS. They are promising it will be almost like new and just as reliable as a completely new lift. That said, I agree with Newpylong that Barker is a major lift in the resorts network, it is THE workhorse lift in terms of hours run on it each year and being it is actually at a base lodge portal, deserves to be a new signature lift. A six like the new Swift Current 6 at BS would be more than appropriate here. Now, a storage facility for the Chairs, even if split half at base and half at summit would be a tight fit at Barker. So that was apparently a concern I assume. They also swear the T-Bar has alleviated the need for a large capacity increase on the Barker lift replacement. Perhaps. I'm fine if they use saved $$ to build a much larger Barker lodge, they need that if they intend to keep the racing program as large as it is. The current Barker doesn't have enough room for the public and the racing communities midwinter on the weekends. But that isn't in the stated plans.

I know many would love a detach out of White Cap. With line lengths less than 4000', I just do not see them adding to the Detach fleet here. Tempest is suppose to be carpet upgraded along with a new lift (whether that is just a new drive or entire thing, unknown). If it adds a bit more speed either actual line speed or better loading flow and less slow/stops, fine. Shipyard has been killing it at White Cap lodge with all their new dining options and entertainment out on the deck so I think the draw of WC as a start base is taking hold without a HSD there.

 

[deadheadskier]

I think location probably also hurts resale at Jordan. It's in the middle of nowhere compared to the East Side of the resort. If I had my pick, I'd much prefer to be closer to the access road restaurants and Bethel. I basically view Jordan to be like Sunrise/Bear at Killington. It's too far removed from the action.

I do enjoy Jordan and Oz terrain, but I just don't see it as the better part of the resort to be when the lifts close for the day.

 

[machski]

I think location probably also hurts resale at Jordan. It's in the middle of nowhere compared to the East Side of the resort. If I had my pick, I'd much prefer to be closer to the access road restaurants and Bethel. I basically view Jordan to be like Sunrise/Bear at Killington. It's too far removed from the action.

I do enjoy Jordan and Oz terrain, but I just don't see it as the better part of the resort to be when the lifts close for the day.

There is that but the number one complaint is the pain when Jordan is on hold during season. You cannot just head out on the slopes and make early tracks at Jordan/Oz. You have to shuttle/drive over and White Cap is the closest lodge when you drive, the exact other end of the resort. Perhaps the mountain will drop folks off at the top of Merrill Hill when it is open, that would be much shorter of a shuttle ride

 

[2Planker]

There is that but the number one complaint is the pain when Jordan is on hold during season. You cannot just head out on the slopes and make early tracks at Jordan/Oz. You have to shuttle/drive over and White Cap is the closest lodge when you drive, the exact other end of the resort. Perhaps the mountain will drop folks off at the top of Merrill Hill when it is open, that would be much shorter of a shuttle ride

Hmmm.... Maybe time for a West access Rd., straight to Jordan ?
Been 30 years since that proposal

 

[Riverveteran]

The main issue with Jordan is the windhods as Vortex stated. It is the first to go onto wind hold and the last to come off normally. While Jordan hotel guests can get out at times on the Jordan Double, that lift was not a brand new design and was installed as cheap as possible (thus the high, level span coming out of the Jordan load/unload side) making it also prone to windhold issues. Even with the double running, you cannot get guests back up to the hotel. This has caused resale prices at the Jordan Hotel to plummet (Summit shares resale for double to triple what Jordan does even though Jordan is measurably better in terms of quality), many guests that get hung up with mutiday windholds rate the Jordan poorly and won't return, etc. So the need to upgrade Jordan to a machine with better wind tolerance is definitely there. As there is no actual day lodge on that side of the resort, a signature heated bubble chair makes sense to allow guests a break from the elements before heading to the Peak Lodge or beyond.

As to the Jordan lift flip, I expect they will have Dopp do a huge overhaul of the current Jordan Quad before it makes its way to Barker similar to what they did with Ramcharger to Shedhorn at BS. They are promising it will be almost like new and just as reliable as a completely new lift. That said, I agree with Newpylong that Barker is a major lift in the resorts network, it is THE workhorse lift in terms of hours run on it each year and being it is actually at a base lodge portal, deserves to be a new signature lift. A six like the new Swift Current 6 at BS would be more than appropriate here. Now, a storage facility for the Chairs, even if split half at base and half at summit would be a tight fit at Barker. So that was apparently a concern I assume. They also swear the T-Bar has alleviated the need for a large capacity increase on the Barker lift replacement. Perhaps. I'm fine if they use saved $$ to build a much larger Barker lodge, they need that if they intend to keep the racing program as large as it is. The current Barker doesn't have enough room for the public and the racing communities midwinter on the weekends. But that isn't in the stated plans.

I know many would love a detach out of White Cap. With line lengths less than 4000', I just do not see them adding to the Detach fleet here. Tempest is suppose to be carpet upgraded along with a new lift (whether that is just a new drive or entire thing, unknown). If it adds a bit more speed either actual line speed or better loading flow and less slow/stops, fine. Shipyard has been killing it at White Cap lodge with all their new dining options and entertainment out on the deck so I think the draw of WC as a start base is taking hold without a HSD there.

White Cap is a fine facility, nicest restrooms on the mountain.

 

[machski]

Just got back in, nice day and good conditions overall. Jibe skis great with the slight trail mod and new snowmaking, also like how they regraded lights out to lower downdraft. Big expansion coming, with multiple runs off Aurora and Jordan will be up soon. Even making Cowardly Lion of the top of Oz today. Doesn't look like they are concerned with lift ops staffing if making up there. Snowbound-Obseasion skied great, mid and upper Obsession should start getting made after tomorrow's speed bump, White Heat quad was spinning for a while today too.

My guess is they start filling in down low when the temps finally drop Friday for the run into the holiday. Little WC pod and Bear Paw for sure plus Ridge Run. Upper Obsession is obviously on the hit list and I image WH immediately after. Probably Excalibur in Jordan as well at a minimum.

 

[Newpylong]

Looks like they are going quick.

 

[machski]

Since we have been ripping Vail for staffing issues, figured I'd add SR into this. This vacation week, they have backed off considerably from snowmaking efforts, only making on 2 or 3 unopened trails at a time this week. My belief is that they are very short staffed, especially in lift ops and have shifted the bulk of the snowmaking team to lift ops over the holiday to allow for maximum lifts in operation. Kind of crappy, but nature has been playing ok in Maine this week with mostly white, small refills and they got a ton made in the lead up. I expect a full push to all uncovered terrain starting next Monday or Tuesday as they shift those snowmakers back to snow.