25-26 Season Passes

[urungus]

good for them, since we all want to enjoy our time on the hill

Unfortunately it is not good for the rest of us when the super-wealthy take ski areas like Haystack and Windham private - no enjoying time on those hills for the rest of us anymore.

 

[cdskier]

Unfortunately it is not good for the rest of us when the super-wealthy take ski areas like Haystack and Windham private - no enjoying time on those hills for the rest of us anymore.

Agreed. I'm not as familiar with Haystack and alternatives in that area, but for Windham shifting it more and more to private is a substantial number of skier visits that need to go elsewhere. There's only 3 major resorts in the Catskills. (Sorry Platty, I love you but you're not a resort for the general masses). Taking 1/3 out of the equation is a big shift with people needing to go elsewhere. Not exactly like Hunter and Belleayre are under-utilized either. I suppose some NYC/NJ skiers could shift to the Berkshires as well, but for some reason that never seemed like a big draw for anyone I know from this demographic.

 

[drjeff]

Unfortunately it is not good for the rest of us when the super-wealthy take ski areas like Haystack and Windham private - no enjoying time on those hills for the rest of us anymore.

Hermitage wise, the reality is if it wasn't private now, it long ago would of been closed and now overgrown. Heck, even when it was owned by ASC and was available on their passes, the place was a ghost town that wasn't sustainable operations wise in that form. There certainly can be situations where a limited geographic region is oversaturated with ski areas, and often in cases like that, the smallest one has the greatest challenge maintaing operations.

Heck, you can look at the Magic/Bromley/Stratton region. While all 3 are operating and seemingly "good" health, I think we all saw that the least bank rolled of them. Magic, definitely had it's moments not all that long ago, where it was on life support, and probably needed to be defibrulated a couple of times, before it found some investors with both a deep passion for the place, and enough working capital to slowly bring it back to a much healthier place than it's been in a long time, and possibly ever.

The key is to finding a target market that makes it work, and in the case of some resorts, if that market is a private club setting, well then it probably wasn't very succesful over an extended period of time, as a public ski area. Windham might be in it's own category as the proximity to the $$ of the New York Metro area, as well as the realtively few other decent sized ski areas in the region, likely gives it the chance to go the private route

 

[abc]

Windham is a different phenomenon than Hermitage and/or Magic.

Unlike the southern Vermont mountains, Windham suffers from overcrowding rather than neglect. So it’s a novel approach to jack the price way up to cull the crowd.

I seem to recall, right here on this board, quite a few posters said the big mountains are too crowded due to the cheap mega passes. And they hypothesized season pass price should go back to the old days (and some) to keep the slopes from being a zoo. Well, Windham is putting into practice exactly that theory!

I hope those are not the same posters?

 

[Edd]

Hermitage wise, the reality is if it wasn't private now, it long ago would of been closed and now overgrown. Heck, even when it was owned by ASC and was available on their passes, the place was a ghost town that wasn't sustainable operations wise in that form. There certainly can be situations where a limited geographic region is oversaturated with ski areas, and often in cases like that, the smallest one has the greatest challenge maintaing operations.

Heck, you can look at the Magic/Bromley/Stratton region. While all 3 are operating and seemingly "good" health, I think we all saw that the least bank rolled of them. Magic, definitely had it's moments not all that long ago, where it was on life support, and probably needed to be defibrulated a couple of times, before it found some investors with both a deep passion for the place, and enough working capital to slowly bring it back to a much healthier place than it's been in a long time, and possibly ever.

The key is to finding a target market that makes it work, and in the case of some resorts, if that market is a private club setting, well then it probably wasn't very succesful over an extended period of time, as a public ski area. Windham might be in it's own category as the proximity to the $$ of the New York Metro area, as well as the realtively few other decent sized ski areas in the region, likely gives it the chance to go the private route

I had one of those ASC passes and I went everywhere but Haystack, I was so obsessed with the bigger places. Now that I'm the opposite, I reget not hitting Haystack when I literally had a pass to it.

 

[thetrailboss]

I had one of those ASC passes and I went everywhere but Haystack, I was so obsessed with the bigger places. Now that I'm the opposite, I reget not hitting Haystack when I literally had a pass to it.

Same here.

 

[chuckstah]

I had one of those ASC passes and I went everywhere but Haystack, I was so obsessed with the bigger places. Now that I'm the opposite, I reget not hitting Haystack when I literally had a pass to it.

I used to skip Haystack as well, until ASC adopted a no blackout days at Haystack only policy, regardless of what pass level you had. We hit Haystack every holiday period from that point on, and it was never very crowded.

 

[machski]

Used to race at Haystack during mid '90's in college. Always thought it was a fun little place, when not racing and they were in play the Witches pod was quite a bit of fun.

 

[machski]

NEP's go on sale tomorrow but still no advanced notice on pricing. I'm going to speculate that is not a good sign of minimal increases. Bet Boyne may be a bit aggressive in pricing. We'll see tomorrow.

 

[parahelia]

NEP's go on sale tomorrow but still no advanced notice on pricing. I'm going to speculate that is not a good sign of minimal increases. Bet Boyne may be a bit aggressive in pricing. We'll see tomorrow.

I had the same thought. Seasonal programs for kids went up $150 over last year (they opened for renewals yesterday). Now they're $2149/year; the first year my kids joined (2018/19), it was $1299. The demand is clearly there, though. Last year the program sold out in March in a few hours, while in 2018 I was able to get a spot in October. Just got an email from the director that they're nearly sold out again, and public sales don't start until tomorrow. At those prices, I'm relieved to have my kids out of the programs...

 

[thebigo]

Boyne is offering the best product for a boston north family. The price is going to suck but we will pay it. Part of that hefty price needs to include skiing into the first weekend of may.

 

[Edd]

Saddleback full season pass increased to $1099.

 

[deadheadskier]

Saddleback full season pass increased to $1099.

What was it last year? As much as I love Saddleback, I'm not sure I would pay that high of a price unless Boyne Pass is % 20-30% higher. Saddleback can be a little bit limited during low tide compared to the Boyne Maine properties.

It's interesting that Maine seems to have the highest cost pass prices. Maybe it's a function of Maine resorts realizing their audience is a bit more captive than NH and VT.

 

[Edd]

What was it last year? As much as I love Saddleback, I'm not sure I would pay that high of a price unless Boyne Pass is % 20-30% higher. Saddleback can be a little bit limited during low tide compared to the Boyne Maine properties.

It's interesting that Maine seems to have the highest cost pass prices. Maybe it's a function of Maine resorts realizing their audience is a bit more captive than NH and VT.

Don’t know what the increase was but I would have estimated a full pass would be $800 max and even that sounds high.

 

[deadheadskier]

Don’t know what the increase was but I would have estimated a full pass would be $800 max and even that sounds high.

I agree. $800 seems about right.

When I see $1100, my thoughts go to one of two things. Either they are charging that much because Boyne has raised the market floor in Maine or they aren't doing all that well financially from a skier volume perspective and need to focus on a higher yield per customer.

At hate to say this, but I think if Saddleback wants to steal more skiers from Boyne and elsewhere , they probably need to sacrifice 2-3 of their classic natural trails, widen and grade them for snowmaking and grooming . What they have of that trail type is great, but it's limited. This past weekend was a perfect example. I had booked the weekend there earlier in the season. Due to the rain last week I cancelled. It didn't seem worth spending 7 hours in the car plus $500 on lodging and F&B to ski such limited terrain. So, we stayed local and just skied Gunstock. Had we been looking at Sunday River or Sugarloaf this weekend, we still would have gone.

 

[thebigo]

thousand dollars for a boyne silver. appears i have two weeks to make a choice. 3X cannon/boyne for $3117 or 3X WMSP for $2553

 

[AdironRider]

I agree. $800 seems about right.

When I see $1100, my thoughts go to one of two things. Either they are charging that much because Boyne has raised the market floor in Maine or they aren't doing all that well financially from a skier volume perspective and need to focus on a higher yield per customer.

At hate to say this, but I think if Saddleback wants to steal more skiers from Boyne and elsewhere , they probably need to sacrifice 2-3 of their classic natural trails, widen and grade them for snowmaking and grooming . What they have of that trail type is great, but it's limited. This past weekend was a perfect example. I had booked the weekend there earlier in the season. Due to the rain last week I cancelled. It didn't seem worth spending 7 hours in the car plus $500 on lodging and F&B to ski such limited terrain. So, we stayed local and just skied Gunstock. Had we been looking at Sunday River or Sugarloaf this weekend, we still would have gone.

Saddleback seems to think they are the next Jay Peak, which basically has like 4-5 groomers (not counting traverse type trails) that stand alone and the rest is glades / natural. Jay proves that type of mountain can succeed, but I'm not sure two can on the East Coast, and Saddleback doesn't have the same access to the Canadian metro areas. Nor does Saddleback get the snowfall that Jay does which is a requirement for that type of mountain to succeed as well.

Oh and a Jay pass is currently 300 bucks less money or almost 30%. Even if Jay releases pass pricing and that goes up 100, its still far more in line with fair value IMO than 1100 ask for Saddleback.

 

[parahelia]

Boyne is offering the best product for a boston north family. The price is going to suck but we will pay it. Part of that hefty price needs to include skiing into the first weekend of may.

Agreed. I look at the alternatives and am 100% happy in the Boyne ecosystem. They continue to invest in all 3 resorts - Sugarloaf's snowmaking definitely seems to have stepped up over a few years ago. While SR is my regular spot, I always go for some day trips to Sugarloaf in late April/early May. There's almost always still a ton of natural coverage at that time, including the trees - see photo below from last year.

New England Pass pricing is out and it's not as bad as I feared. Renewal prices on the gold are only up $60 ($1389) and junior price is the same is last ($599).

 

[deadheadskier]

Saddleback seems to think they are the next Jay Peak, which basically has like 4-5 groomers (not counting traverse type trails) that stand alone and the rest is glades / natural. Jay proves that type of mountain can succeed, but I'm not sure two can on the East Coast, and Saddleback doesn't have the same access to the Canadian metro areas. Nor does Saddleback get the snowfall that Jay does which is a requirement for that type of mountain to succeed as well.

Oh and a Jay pass is currently 300 bucks less money or almost 30%. Even if Jay releases pass pricing and that goes up 100, its still far more in line with fair value IMO than 1100 ask for Saddleback.

Good analogy with Jay. And yeah, it's not easy to do unless you get 300"+ per season. Saddleback is more like 200" and though they retain what they get perhaps better than anywhere in New England, you still need refreshes after the frequent New England thaws.

I think Jay has to keep their prices more competitive as they face so much more competition. They can lose destination skiers to Stowe or Sugarbush or locals to Bolton or Smuggs. They also probably do three times as many skier visits as Saddleback and can more than make up the revenue on volume.

I think Boyne is able to charge what they do because of the captive audience mentioned in my earlier post. If you live in Maine, it's a pain in the ass to drive to ski anywhere else except the Mt Washington Valley. I skied Wildcat pretty frequently when I lived in Portland, but never got a pass there. ASC/Boyne was the only pass that made sense.

 

[jimmywilson69]

Jay also has to consider that a lot of their pass holders are Canadian. Which is what pass price x 1.5 right now?