Article on Burke

[Masskier]

Did anyone see the article on Ginn's plans, on the front page of the Burlington Free Press (Sunday)?

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080210/NEWS01/802100304/1009&theme=

 

[thetrailboss]

The original trailboss and I did. The comments on the side from readers are interesting as well.

 

[hiroto]

Why all the new development has to be "upscale" nowadays.

When they were building new resort at Sunapee, I thought it was great because there weren't really much of condo type lodging in the area. But it turned out to be $400+ a night kind of resort which is way over what we are willing to pay.

With down turn of economy and housing market, is recreational property market still that hot to support this kind of development?

 

[WJenness]

Why all the new development has to be "upscale" nowadays.

When they were building new resort at Sunapee, I thought it was great because there weren't really much of condo type lodging in the area. But it turned out to be $400+ a night kind of resort which is way over what we are willing to pay.

With down turn of economy and housing market, is recreational property market still that hot to support this kind of development?

Follow the $$$... People who buy upscale condos are more likely to spend the money for nice dinners and other amenities that they can make money on.

The guy who is looking for a lower-cost option is probably also going to stop at the food store on his way up to the slopes, cook in his condo, not spring for the massage, and all the other little things that end up putting money in the resort's pockets.

-w

 

[hiroto]

The guy who is looking for a lower-cost option is probably also going to stop at the food store on his way up to the slopes, cook in his condo, not spring for the massage, and all the other little things that end up putting money in the resort's pockets.

.. and hang out on "Skiing on cheap" thread. That's me! :grin:

 

[twinplanx]

WTF...Haven't these people heard of Global Warming? Why would they block any sort of "green" power? What really:flame:'s me is it's a ski resort. Oh yeah it might ruin the "view" :uzi:

 

[thetrailboss]

So to weigh in here a bit more and offer some observations.

Three years ago when there were rumors about Ginn coming in, I said that I would "believe it when I saw it." Growing up, I skied by that "Future Expansion Map" for several years. In my lifetime, there have been seven different owners of Burke Mountain. Some things have changed since Mr. Kitchell's time, some things have not. I had to pinch myself when I saw the Sherburne Double come down. I was in shock when I rode the HSQ for the first time.

In 2005 Ginn said NOTHING about development at Burke. In fact, the plowed millions into the place before announcing that they owned it. There were only rumors as to what was going to happen. Every thing was hush-hush.

Now that the housing market has slowed, and some of the big plans and big improvements to the mountain have stalled (that long awaited summit high speed quad), my skepticism remains. I don't think that Florida knows what to do. It seems that every other week now we hear about "the big plans" and how "good things" are going to be. Why the sudden change in attitude? Why go from secret back room deals to very public discussion of plans?

They don't know much about skiing and are moving cautiously. There have been some blunders. The first GM lasted less than a year...and didn't run things too well (he said he listened to FH and DA, but that was not the case). Last season, when passholders were asking about what would happen to the ski area, the reps from Ginn "forgot the ski area expansion plans" and only brought the latest proposal on the condo development to the passholder night. And some think that staffing is inadequate in some areas and overly heavy in others.

I have noticed that marketing has shifted yet again to local skiers and riders (ads on local radio and newspapers almost daily) whereas the mountain skipped the Boston Ski Show. Perhaps this is in reaction to the fact that almost any weekend green license plates outnumber white ones in the lots. But the problem remains that those who have green license plates generally don't have the green for big condos.

The problem I see right now is a chicken and the egg question. Do you invest in the ski area, or improve that "amenity" first as a way to draw in more customers and those who will drop a lot of money for a house or condo? Or do you not change the ski area, or make minor changes, and try to presell the units on a promise of a bigger, brighter future? Though the latter appears to be the current approach, and the safest and most conservative, I can't help but remember those days of skiing past the "Future Expansion" maps of trails and lifts that never seemed to come, or reading of the "Star Club" that never was able to sustain the future of the mountain.

If the former is the plan, then simply adding two or three more snowmaking lines (on Powderhorn, Doug's Drop, and Dipper Doodle/Wilderness), and dropping in a HSQ to the top will do wonders.

But I doubt that we will see that anytime soon.

 

[Angus]

I've noticed that Burke has been advertising all winter in the WSJ about trailside condos starting in the mid-$900's which seems like a lot of $$$ for that area.

 

[tequiladoug]

at least no matter how many condos they build, you will still be able to ski.

on the other hand, the 100 miles of mtn bike trails (Kingdom Trails - which in my opinion is the best trail system in the entire northeast) will be hugely affected, and who knows if they would even be there in a few years?? :x

 

[thetrailboss]

I've noticed that Burke has been advertising all winter in the WSJ about trailside condos starting in the mid-$900's which seems like a lot of $$$ for that area.

Are you referring to the The Bear Path Condos? If so, they sell for $1,000,050.00 each I believe...and they are under construction right now with what appears to be half of East Burke working on them. These are not affiliated with Ginn at all....it's a project by Jack Dator, who is a Massachusetts developer.

 

[Marc]

I skied at Burke on Sunday and I liked it a whole bunch. Other than that I have no strong opinions on this matter.

 

[thetrailboss]

Geesh you were there too and didn't tell me?????

 

[Marc]

Only for the afternoon, unfortunately. If we had known about the special we'd have been there early. BTW, The Jungle is friggin sweet.

 

[riverc0il]

If the former is the plan, then simply adding two or three more snowmaking lines (on Powderhorn, Doug's Drop, and Dipper Doodle/Wilderness), and dropping in a HSQ to the top will do wonders.

But I doubt that we will see that anytime soon.

I was skiing Burke today and I do not normally notice just how slow the summit lift is. But I got my ticket at the Sherburne Lodge since I needed to visit guest services, so I loaded the Sherburne HSQ first to get to the Willoughby Quad. The speed difference is nuts. I just kept thinking on that first lift ride up to the summit that Burke would really "break out" in the New England skiing and riding world once that summit ride time gets cut in half with a HSQ. The addition of snowmaking on those lines skier's right of Warren's will help ensure consistency on lean years and get the place open sooner so they can capitalize on the holidays.

Great summary, TB. Not having grown up near Burke and seen various owners come and go, I can not speak from the historical perspective. But given the economic down turn and housing issues, even I have shifted to a "believe it when it happens" point of view and I had not many doubts in Ginn from before the official take over happened. Bad timing on Ginn's part and having Burke be their first (technically second, IIRC) foray into the skiing industry is plainly evident for many of the reasons you cited and more. Given how large Ginn is, they could still cut their losses at this point and only loose several million or whatever. Chump change to Ginn. Once they start building though, I think that will show the commitment to mountain improvements because no one will buy a million dollar home at a ski area without a summit HSQ.

 

[thetrailboss]

Only for the afternoon, unfortunately. If we had known about the special we'd have been there early. BTW, The Jungle is friggin sweet.

Yeah, I got into the Jungle again in January after a hiatus and I tell you it is long and sweet. It has MORE birches in it than the Birches does!!!!

And Riv: if you are ever up at Burke in the summer, you will notice that Northern Star ACTUALLY set up a juncture in the snowmaking line to go DOWN Doug's Drop. The only thing that Ginn would have to do is to drop the pipe down the trail and plug it in. You would also see that where Little Dipper ties into Toll Road, the snowmaking line has already been laid under the road where the trail would continue up to Carriage Road. So the plans were in place...they just need money.

As for Powderhorn: I'd run a line up through Dipper Doodle and then either up Lew's Leap or Toll Road to Powderhorn, and then up through to Wilderness. That line would hit what, four trails or so?

 

[56fish]

at least no matter how many condos they build, you will still be able to ski.

:x

I beg to differ...picture rich folks & family en mass pointing their fancy skis down anything skiers-left of the quad. I'll be putting mirrors on my helmet.....:beer:

I look for them to limit access down the road.

If not stopped or, or controlled now.

:sad:

 

[thetrailboss]

I beg to differ...picture rich folks & family en mass pointing their fancy skis down anything skiers-left of the quad. I'll be putting mirrors on my helmet.....:beer:

I look for them to limit access down the road.

If not stopped or, or controlled now.

:sad:

True, but the land is state land, so they can't limit access....

 

[Marc]

As much as I dislike the rich pretentious crowd... the best skiing for me at Burke (make that, the only skiing) was in the woods. Except for maybe under the quad, and the power line trail in East Bowl, I didn't see a lot of open stuff I was interested in... and typically the condo crowd isn't much for the glades, so I see a silver lining.

 

[thetrailboss]

As much as I dislike the rich pretentious crowd... the best skiing for me at Burke (make that, the only skiing) was in the woods. Except for maybe under the quad, and the power line trail in East Bowl, I didn't see a lot of open stuff I was interested in... and typically the condo crowd isn't much for the glades, so I see a silver lining.

The Condo Crowd at Burke would ski the HSQ all day, or do laps on Willoughby and then Dippers....without getting the full Burke experience.

 

[dropKickMurphy]

I've never skied Burke, but I hope to do so in the near future.

I just returned from my first trip to Saddleback, and absolutely loved the place. It seems to me that there are a lot of similarities between Burke and Saddleback:

* A similar layout, with the beginner trails located below the lodge and the intermediate/advance above the lodge.

* Both areas have 2000' vertical (when the lower green trails are counted).

* Both areas are blessed with a location near some of the most beautiful lakes on the planet: Rangeley Lake and Lake Willoughby.

* Both areas have been rightly regarded as hidden gems. Both are located within close proximity of several mega resorts that draw the bulk of the out of state skiers. Both areas have maintained a loyal core clientele of (mostly local) skiiers who are attracted to the unpretentious vibe, the quality of the terrain, the variety of trails (particulary the traditional narrow trails that wind down the natural contours of the mountain), and the lack of crowds.

* Both areas have been acquired by new own owners within the past few years. The owners of both areas have already made significant improvements, and both have ambitious long range development plans.

The major difference in the current situations of Burke and Saddleback seems to be in how people feel about the new owners. I spoke to a bunch of long-time Saddleback skiers over the weekend, and they all seemed to have a very positive feeling towards the Berry family and their plans. The improvements they have already made are pretty remarkable. (The new base lodge is probably the nicest I have seen at any ski area. It's located at almost 2500 feet...the views from the Swig 'N Smelt Pub are just spectacular).

The comfort level that the skiers have with the owners stems largely from the fact that the Berry's are local...and they are skiers. They have given the impression that they understand what makes Saddleback unique, and they want to maintain its essential character.

It remains to be seen whether the new owners can carry out all of the planned improvements and expansion without pricing out the locals. Most of the people I spoke with are expecting that the prices will rise (currently $40 for an adult lift ticket...even on holidays and weekends) but are hopeful that it will remain an affordable place for families to ski. The owners sound like they really want to keep it affordable. I got the sense that people are really rooting for them to succeed.

The attitude of Burke skiers toward Ginn seems to be less enthusiastic. There is a positive feeling from the fact that Ginn easily has the financial resources to insure the Burke's future. It's just that no one is quite sure what the place will become.

Three bedroom Fantasy Castles starting at a million bucks? That certainly doesn't sound very NEK to me. In contrast, the new slopeside 3 BR condos at Saddleback are listed around 300K. I also saw listings for some older (but renovated) 3 BR slopeside condos for around 225K. They might not be Fantasy Castles, but they are really, really nice. If I didn't have a kid who just started college (and another who will start in 4 years) I would be giving some serious consideration to those.

I have to wonder how many people who ski Burke regularly could even consider dropping over a million bucks to live there. Or whether Ginn even cares. Does Ginn understand why Burke is special to many people? Do they have the faintest notion of what makes the NEK such a unique place? Does anyone think that maintaining Burke's unique character...it's vibe....is even a priority with them?