Maybe if they allow a Casino, private funding will follow.
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Balsams Grand Resort teams up with ski industry legend Les Otten
- Thread starter bobbutts
- Start date
ThinkSnow
Member
While not much is within 100 miles of Dixville Notch, NYC has bus loads of people going to Tremblant and Sugarloaf all season long. The trek to the Balsams would be shorter than both of those, and no passport required.
VTKilarney
Well-known member
I think that the Balsams can shine if they create a true resort that is integrated with a ski area. The best example would be the Mt. Washington Hotel - and even then the ski area is a shuttle bus ride away.
In other words, make a resort that also has skiing. Not a ski area with a nice hotel.
I've stayed at many of the "grand hotels" in the region, and as nice as they may be, I have never felt that they are compelling on their own as resort hotels. The Kilington Grand is a good example. Other than the outdoor pool, there ins't anything all that special about the Killington Grand. It is definitely not somewhere my wife would want to stay while I went skiing for the day.
In other words, make a resort that also has skiing. Not a ski area with a nice hotel.
I've stayed at many of the "grand hotels" in the region, and as nice as they may be, I have never felt that they are compelling on their own as resort hotels. The Kilington Grand is a good example. Other than the outdoor pool, there ins't anything all that special about the Killington Grand. It is definitely not somewhere my wife would want to stay while I went skiing for the day.
ThinkSnow
Member
Couldn't agree more on the "Grand" hotels built by ASC/Otten-- nothing at all special. The Balsams needs to be on the scale of The Lodge at Stowe. I was just there this past weekend, and kept on thinking the Over Easy Cabriolet reminded me of (part of) the Balsams plan.
x10003q
Active member
There might be a few buses per weekend from NYC, but these people are not going to buy one of the 2500 units that are in the plan. They will be occasional visitors. The Balsams is around a 7 hour drive from NYC metro. This is not in the realm of reality for most weekend skiers who might be interested in purchasing real estate. You are asking people from the NYC Metro to drive by a boat load of awesome, established skiing that is much closer including all of Vermont, Gore, Whiteface, and much of NH, and even Sunday River.
One more reason to go to Canada - the Canadian dollar hit a 6 year low today against the US Dollar. One Canadian dollar buys 78.09 US cents or one US dollar buys C$1.2835. Canada is on sale for US residents.
This is where my gut is as well. I think even 1/10 of those 2500 units is going to be a hard sell. Selling even 250 units outright is tough.
drjeff
Well-known member
I think that we all need to remember that the proposed 2500 units is in basically a 30 YEAR master build out plan. So it's not like all 2500 units would be going up starting as soon as funding could be secured.
Also like many master plans, they are subject to change over time - heck look at the master plan that Killington had submitted for the Pico interconnect and concurrent Snowshed/Ramshead upto KBL village build... If that even happens, I highly doubt that it would resemble what the original master plan had it looking like. Master plans and finished products are often 2 very different things when you're talking about what are generally intended to be recreation use 2nd (or more) properties
Also like many master plans, they are subject to change over time - heck look at the master plan that Killington had submitted for the Pico interconnect and concurrent Snowshed/Ramshead upto KBL village build... If that even happens, I highly doubt that it would resemble what the original master plan had it looking like. Master plans and finished products are often 2 very different things when you're talking about what are generally intended to be recreation use 2nd (or more) properties
ThinkSnow
Member
Wasn't talking about property ownership, just weekend/week visitors. If the quality of the resort is on par with The Lodge at Stowe, a long drive past smaller older areas would be justified.
VTKilarney
Well-known member
So who would this compete against the most? Stowe? Sunday River? Jay? Burke?
Stowe, Jay, Mount Washington Hotel, Tremblant and Sugarloaf for sure. Depending on how expensive it will be (and whether or not you fly in), western areas could probably be in play too.
machski
Well-known member
You all are missing part of the Apple here. This region was known long before for the summer and fall season draw long before it was a ski draw. If you have never been to Dixville notch, make the drive just for the natural beauty. Then post back on your thoughts of whether this could work or not.
Newpylong
Well-known member
It is beautiful.
I visited about 15 years ago my one and only time in the summer. Beautiful place.
All of the little-to-do-relative-to-closer-to-population-center concerns exist all year though. The place can be a gem again, hopefully, but it's shortcomings are going to take a lot of money to resolve and I really question if there's a critical mass of demand out there.
As much as I hate to see NH have to step in, this build out probably has to be pretty massive to get the requisite amount of activities needed to attract people up/out there. That's my biggest concern - not how fancy it is, but that there will be enough people to go to sustain all of the businesses necessary to provide vacationers with options of things to do and places to eat up there, etc. Being stuck at the hotel for a week with nowhere else to go doesn't seem worth it to me.
ThinkSnow
Member
I don't think the beauty aspect has been overlooked, this thread was started to discuss the ski area expansion with Les Otten, so that's what its been centered on.
machski
Well-known member
That's fine, then as ski areas go, he built SR up from a molehill. A molehill that at the time SKI felt had no growth potential. Now the Balsams is a bit more of a hike, but there are some examples. Sun Valley, while a historical ski area and resort, is tough to get to, does not get a lot of snow and while the skiing is nice with good vertical, is not overly challenging or large. Yet it continues to thrive based on its luxury image. The Balsams already has a connection to historic luxury and while any new offering will have to prove itself as such, I think this can succeed and that their is a market for a more secluded, luxury resort offering in the NE.
x10003q
Active member
Nobody is going to be flying in to ski Balsams and there is no way an Eastern skier is going to consider Balsams a choice vs skiing out west unless there is no snow in a box that surrounds Colorado to Tahoe to Alaska to Calgary.
The Balsams was popular when people took trains and didn't have air conditioning in there homes. Those days are over. Balsams will be a purely a 'drive to' resort. Comparing The Balsams with Sun Valley is not realistic. Sun Valley is a destination resort with a real town and has been since the 1930s. It is a 1 hour flight from Salt Lake City and has direct flights from many other major US cities.
Since you classify Sun Valley skiing as not overly challenging or large - how do you classify Balsams?:wink:
The problem here is The Balsams is no longer what it might have been decades ago. It will never recapture the luxury market. Its best bet will be to convince a portion of the Sunday River population to switch and market itself heavily to Canadians. Even then there will not be enough visitors to sustain the loans and proposed infrastructure. The location is just too remote.
New Yorkers could fly there like they do to Tremblant - if the place actually got built out like they want. I ran into a surprising number of people who flew into Tremblant from NYC when I was up there last about 7-8 years ago. I'd never do it. Sounds like you never would either, but there are people that would for the right resort experience - and I had to see it myself to be convinced, but it's true.
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machski
Well-known member
Bingo, if this is done right, Balsams will appeal to a clientel that most AZ'ers including myself, would likely not consider. I think if this venture is to succeed, it will have to draw across all seasons, not just the ski season. But if they build the ski area to anything close to full build plans, I don't think any of us can judge Balsams terrain offerings currently. It will be a wait and see. While some on this board dis SR's terrain, I think many never thought it had what it would take to become a major draw in New England. There are always risks with these types of projects, this has a better shot than many due to the fact of a needed economic anchor in the far North of NH and state's desire to work with them in an effort to make that happen. Will it work? It is a risk, but I bet there are some that will be drawn to it.
VTKilarney
Well-known member
If AZ'ers were accurate Bretton Woods and Okemo would have closed a long time ago.
x10003q
Active member
You cannot compare flying from NYC to Montreal vs NYC to Berlin, NH. There are regular flights on multiple carriers every day of the year between 2 huge metro areas that have nothing to do with skiing. Flights into Berlin, NH, will only be about skiing. There are no commercial flights that I can see into Berlin today, only general aviation. Even if you added 2 flights of 50 people per week (which is a major stretch), that's really not going to have any impact on filling beds and restaurants at The Balsams.
Asking NH to pony up the funds for a speculative real estate venture because the area needs jobs is a bad move. Need has no bearing on who is going to visit. I feel bad for people who are struggling in these areas. There is a similar situation in Tupper Lake, NY. These places are fading because of their locations. The ease of access is a big part of the decision we make in choosing an area. Throwing public money at them will not move them closer to population centers.
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