Burke Mtn sold to Jay Peak

[deadheadskier]

Smuggs has built its reputation over many years as VT’s top family destination ski resort. It also has the advantage of being only an hour from Burlington which serves as a draw for college students and locals with reasonably priced season passes. Burke is close to two hours from Burlington and there are too many mountains closer to Burlington that draw from that population ahead of Burke.

I think that last 3 or 4 owners have hoped to make Burke “a mecca for families from the Boston metro area” but there are too many mountains that have already captured that market. I don’t think that a HSQ and a shared pass with Jay Peak – which is still another hour drive – is going to do much to get “wealthy skiing families from Boston” to buy vacation homes there.

As a UVM alum, I can tell you very few of the student skiers I knew got passes at Smuggs. Most got passes to Stowe or Sugarbush. The Burlington Metro area is also only about 200K residents. Compare that with what? 3.5M in Metro Boston? Heck, metro Manchester, NH is more than twice the size of metro Burlington and only two hours away. While I'm sure Smuggs generates a fair amount of local business, their bread and butter is traveling destination skiers filling their condos in the village.

I disagree that just because Burke hasn't been successful at drawing in second home owners from Boston in the past, doesn't mean they can't be successful at it in the future. I kind of look it at from my own family's experience. The first few years as a skiing family we skied primarily Killington. We tried Okemo the 1st year the Northeast Summit Triple went in. My folks chose to buy real estate there as it was less expensive than Killington and they saw Okemo as up and coming. Now look at the place.

I think with upgrades to their snowmaking and improving their lodging offering, Burke can very much steal family ski business from not just Smuggs, but Sugarbush and Stowe in VT and perhaps Sunday River and Sugarloaf in ME as well. The commute is so much easier to Burke than any of those other destinations. They just haven't had a developer with deep enough pockets to make it happen. It would appear that now they do in Stenger/Jay.

 

[from_the_NEK]

I agree that they did not market the new HSQ well at all. In fact they spent most of the summer saying nothing at all. Weird. Their winter marketing, from what I saw, looked good but I wish they kept the same logo that they had.

Hey, I tried

 

[thetrailboss]

Smuggs has built its reputation over many years as VT’s top family destination ski resort. It also has the advantage of being only an hour from Burlington which serves as a draw for college students and locals with reasonably priced season passes. Burke is close to two hours from Burlington and there are too many mountains closer to Burlington that draw from that population ahead of Burke.

I think that last 3 or 4 owners have hoped to make Burke “a mecca for families from the Boston metro area” but there are too many mountains that have already captured that market. I don’t think that a HSQ and a shared pass with Jay Peak – which is still another hour drive – is going to do much to get “wealthy skiing families from Boston” to buy vacation homes there.

Agree that Burlington is not the market, but I think you don't understand that Burke is not going after the "Okemo" crowd, or the wealthy ski families, but rather those that are not looking for the Okemo experience.

 

[thetrailboss]

Hey, I tried

Yeah I know! :lol: They just were off on their timing with the new site and all the new marketing things that came online in early fall. It would have been pretty easy to throw up some updates on their website as you did.

 

[WWF-VT]

Yeah I know! :lol: They just were off on their timing with the new site and all the new marketing things that came online in early fall. It would have been pretty easy to throw up some updates on their website as you did.

If people barely know that Burke exists then marketing a HSQ isn’t likely to increase skier visits. Most people assume that a tier 1 resort has high speed quads. (I always wonder how many people are surprised when they find nothing but slow doubles at Smuggs)

 

[thetrailboss]

If people barely know that Burke exists then marketing a HSQ isn’t likely to increase skier visits. Most people assume that a tier 1 resort has high speed quads. (I always wonder how many people are surprised when they find nothing but slow doubles at Smuggs)

Yes, folks see tier one ski areas as having high speed lifts. There have been many who have either visited Burke or looked into it and have been deterred by the fact that the former summit lift was a very slow quad. So the HSQ to the top was a huge improvement that would spur traffic...in a normal ski season of course...

 

[AdironRider]

As a UVM alum, I can tell you very few of the student skiers I knew got passes at Smuggs. Most got passes to Stowe or Sugarbush. The Burlington Metro area is also only about 200K residents. Compare that with what? 3.5M in Metro Boston? Heck, metro Manchester, NH is more than twice the size of metro Burlington and only two hours away. While I'm sure Smuggs generates a fair amount of local business, their bread and butter is traveling destination skiers filling their condos in the village.

I disagree that just because Burke hasn't been successful at drawing in second home owners from Boston in the past, doesn't mean they can't be successful at it in the future. I kind of look it at from my own family's experience. The first few years as a skiing family we skied primarily Killington. We tried Okemo the 1st year the Northeast Summit Triple went in. My folks chose to buy real estate there as it was less expensive than Killington and they saw Okemo as up and coming. Now look at the place.

I think with upgrades to their snowmaking and improving their lodging offering, Burke can very much steal family ski business from not just Smuggs, but Sugarbush and Stowe in VT and perhaps Sunday River and Sugarloaf in ME as well. The commute is so much easier to Burke than any of those other destinations. They just haven't had a developer with deep enough pockets to make it happen. It would appear that now they do in Stenger/Jay.

I agree with you on the passes and Burlington not being the primary market. 5 of my 6 best friends growing up are UVM alums as well, and none of them really bothered with Smuggs, outside of the occaisional midweek pow day.

However, Im not so sure Im buying the easier to get to argument of Burke vs. Smuggs or Stowe. Probably a bit quicker time wise, thats probably neglible in Stowe's case, but taking the exit onto 89 after the Hooksett toll really isnt that much more difficult.

I havent seen much marketing for Burke at all, but I would think pumping up the advertising to the ski racer famililes would be the first step. Im sure they already do this to some extent though...

 

[deadheadskier]

Burke is about a half hour closer to Boston than Stowe and almost an hour closer than Smuggs. It's a PITA to get to Smuggs from 89. Stowe isn't as bad, but it's still double the distance off of 89 to Stowe than it is off of 91 to Burke. Route 100 from Waterbury to Stowe can be jammed with traffic going 35 mph the whole way as well.

My point is that there is this perception that Burke is so far away, but the reality is that it's an easier commute than many Northern New England ski areas.

 

[AdironRider]

Burke is about a half hour closer to Boston than Stowe and almost an hour closer than Smuggs. It's a PITA to get to Smuggs from 89. Stowe isn't as bad, but it's still double the distance off of 89 to Stowe than it is off of 91 to Burke. Route 100 from Waterbury to Stowe can be jammed with traffic going 35 mph the whole way as well.

My point is that there is this perception that Burke is so far away, but the reality is that it's an easier commute than many Northern New England ski areas.

I see your point. Burke isnt out in the middle of nowhere as much as people think it is.

That being said, for every traffic jam in Waterbury, there are weather events in the Notch. I know I've gotten stuck behind big rigs in snowstorm crawling up through there before. Its not a straight trade as they are mutually exclusive of each other, but you get the idea.

Burke is a fun hill, I wouldnt compare it to Stowe so much as I would to Smuggs, and in that case its most likely a better fit for the Boston market, especially if the kids compete.

 

[from_the_NEK]

One thing I've noticed is that the occasional big city skier wants to be able to brag to their friends where they skied last weekend. Their bragging hinges on the name recognition of the resort they went to. Burke does not have that name recognition.

As an example, I keep coming back to my uncle's family that lives in suburban Boston. He loves to name drop all of the places he has skied. Everytime they come to Burke they love it and for some reason have a hard time remembering how close it was and how much they loved it when the next winter rolls around. My cousin (my uncles son) came up with his wife this last winter. They were amazed at the lack of crowds and the good terrain . I swear they forget these minor details when they go home because they only talk about their trips to Colorado and Stratton (where my other cousins in-laws have a condo :roll.

Historically they have not really paid much attention to Jay either since they ski primarily groomers (don't get me started on my uncles stories of his chest deep powder skiing experience in Aspen :lol. Recently they have actually heard of Jay as "that mountain with the waterpark" and are now interested in trying it out. I see this as evidence of a total change in perception of Jay by a several members of the "typical Boston area" market. If Jay is able to change the perceptions of Burke in a similar manner (but without building a waterpark) I will be impressed. I think having the two mountains marketable together will be a big cog in the perception dept.

 

[riverc0il]

If people barely know that Burke exists then marketing a HSQ isn’t likely to increase skier visits. Most people assume that a tier 1 resort has high speed quads. (I always wonder how many people are surprised when they find nothing but slow doubles at Smuggs)

Chicken or the egg: How does a resort become a tier 1 resort? By adding High Speed Quads? Oh, then no resort would be tier 1 because they all didn't have HSQs at one point. You are essentially saying Burke can't be a tier one resort as it currently stands for reasons other than a HSQ. I guess Bolton, Saddleback, Mad River, and Smuggs are not Tier 1 either...

Speaking of Smuggs, when I ski there, I talk to a lot of resort guests on the lifts, not many locals. Lots of dads sneaking away from the family for a few quick runs. If Smuggs can do it, Burke can do it much closer and with high speed lifts.

 

[AdironRider]

Chicken or the egg: How does a resort become a tier 1 resort? By adding High Speed Quads? Oh, then no resort would be tier 1 because they all didn't have HSQs at one point. You are essentially saying Burke can't be a tier one resort as it currently stands for reasons other than a HSQ. I guess Bolton, Saddleback, Mad River, and Smuggs are not Tier 1 either...

Speaking of Smuggs, when I ski there, I talk to a lot of resort guests on the lifts, not many locals. Lots of dads sneaking away from the family for a few quick runs. If Smuggs can do it, Burke can do it much closer and with high speed lifts.

Outside of Smuggs, and even then its a stretch, I wouldnt consider any of those places Tier 1 level resorts. I wouldnt even include Whiteface, Attitash, etc.

Tier one places arent as numerous as people think IMO. Mt. Snow, Killington, Sunday River, Stowe, Okemo, and Stratton would qualify, possibly Sugarloaf (which you either ski or you dont, I dont hear of too many people dabbling with that place).

 

[WWF-VT]

Chicken or the egg: How does a resort become a tier 1 resort? By adding High Speed Quads? Oh, then no resort would be tier 1 because they all didn't have HSQs at one point. You are essentially saying Burke can't be a tier one resort as it currently stands for reasons other than a HSQ. I guess Bolton, Saddleback, Mad River, and Smuggs are not Tier 1 either...

Speaking of Smuggs, when I ski there, I talk to a lot of resort guests on the lifts, not many locals. Lots of dads sneaking away from the family for a few quick runs. If Smuggs can do it, Burke can do it much closer and with high speed lifts.

In my earlier response I was not trying to make a point on what qualifies as a tier 1 resort. My point was that if you were trying to market a resort based upon adding a HSQ that’s not going to do much to increase your visits when you don’t already have a market presence. Part of this thread has been about adding skier visits from the Boston market. Burke has limited name recognition in this area.

 

[stomachdoc]

+ 1 on the KT moving to Burke. Win win there. I imagine that Bill and company will want to increase biking.

You're absolutely right. We have a home in Waterville Valley, and my skiing friends are, of course, also avid Mountain Bikers. When they want to get out of Waterville Valley for a change of MTB venue in the summer, Burke is the usual destination. When they want to get out of Waterville Valley for a change of skiing destination in the winter, Cannon is the usual destination.

 

[farlep99]

What's a "tier 1" resort? Sounds terrible!

 

[bobbutts]

... The Burlington Metro area is also only about 200K residents. Compare that with what? 3.5M in Metro Boston? Heck, metro Manchester, NH is more than twice the size of metro Burlington and only two hours away.....

While technically correct per wikipedia, 400k for metro Manchester seems way too high.

I found this Metropolitan NECTAs

Burlington–South Burlington

VT

194,354

Manchester

NH

187,398

Which I think is a much more fair comparison. The 400k metro Manchester number must include Portsmouth/Concord/Nashua, which is kind of wacky to include in my book.

 

[bobbutts]

Yes, folks see tier one ski areas as having high speed lifts. There have been many who have either visited Burke or looked into it and have been deterred by the fact that the former summit lift was a very slow quad. So the HSQ to the top was a huge improvement that would spur traffic...in a normal ski season of course...

Bingo, I visited only once in the 90's and did not return. Barely remember the trip, except that I was not a fan of the Willoughby Quad.

 

[thetrailboss]

Bingo, I visited only once in the 90's and did not return. Barely remember the trip, except that I was not a fan of the Willoughby Quad.

I think if you look at Burke, circa 1995 or so, you'd see that it had three huge problems: (1) snowmaking; (2) lifts (the slow Willoughby Quad and the slow double); and (3) bed base for folks who wanted hotel accommodations. Well, Northern Star put a dent in the snowmaking problem, but I think more needs to be done to not just improve what they have but to expand it to include a few more runs (just add coverage--DON'T widen). They say that they have 80% or something like that, but when you look at the trail map and when you ski Burke you get the feeling that it is less than that...or at least it seems that way especially since they just don't blow on Little Dipper anymore for whatever reason. Ginn/REIT fixed the lift problem at great expense. The only thing really for Stenger et al is some snowmaking upgrades and the bedbase issue...the latter Stenger has been doing at Jay. I wouldn't say that JPR is lighting the world on fire with its snowmaking system, but at least they know the business and understand what it will take to improve it. And yes marketing is a big thing that Burke needs. That's Jay's forte.

 

[thetrailboss]

...and surprised about Manchester NH population vs. Burlington.

 

[deadheadskier]

While technically correct per wikipedia, 400k for metro Manchester seems way too high.

I found this Metropolitan NECTAs

Burlington–South Burlington

VT

194,354

Manchester

NH

187,398

Which I think is a much more fair comparison. The 400k metro Manchester number must include Portsmouth/Concord/Nashua, which is kind of wacky to include in my book.

The population of Burlington is only about 45K. South Burlington, I would assume 20ish. The population of Manchester alone is 110K. The population of all of Chittenden County is only 150K, though I've often read that the Burlington Metro population is considered to be 200K, so there must be towns outside of Chittenden County included in that figure. The city of Manchester and town of Derry alone are over 150K. There is definitely easily double the people in Manchester and surrounding communities than there is in Burlington and it's surrounding communities.